Serious inquiries only please - 100th level adventure hook and module in development

[Ozmar]

I was going to add in parts in each chapter where the characters can flex threir cosiderable might and boost their egos. Perhaps even including everyone's favorite, small orphan boy, 3rd level rogue, tries to pick the parties pockets. Yes he will get caught, or he should, but then what are you going to do? I know of an Epic party that hunted him down, ransacked his meger dwelling and broke his fingers, and they where a epic level good party.

How else do you expect him to learn anything?

Anyway, I was trying for a couple of over powering encounters with a few ego boosting underpowered encounters and a couple, at least, regular challeneging situations in each chapter. My outline was more of an over view of the story in each chapter than an exact encounter-by-encounter overview.

Hope that helps

Agreed. But in terms of pacing, I recommend that we put the ego boosts earlier in the adventure, and then another one right after the first serious challenge. Maybe something like this...

1. Level 20 stuff. Face an impossible challenge (level 40?)
2. Boosted
3. Face the same impossible challenge and smear it.
4. Face an even bigger challenge (armies of fiends, CR 40 guy gets his "big brother", etc...) and smear it, too.
5. Face a real challenging challenge (appropriate CR)
6. Face another apparent challenge, but smear it.
7. Build up to the final big badda boom finale.

Something like that?

BTW - I'm really digging the whole outline so far, and am planning to run this at some future date, so keep up the great work!

Ozmar the Encouraging

 

[Ozmar]

Actually, the Outlands are also described as inifnite but are effectively about 1200 feet in radius.
I agree that we better stick to the official version of things as much as possible, though, and that the spire-climbing scene can be great; ditch the infinite spire shtick.

I dunno... I think the challenge inherent in the contradiction is one thing that will make the tale all the more epic and memorable. After all, we want the players to walk away saying:

"And the first thing we did was climb the Spire to fight these two crazy wizards at the top."

"Wait a minute... how did you climb the Spire? Isn't it infinitely tall?"

Now what do you want them to say?

A. "Well, it wasn't really infinitely tall, it was just really tall."

B. "Well, we opened up Shrodeneger's Box to observe his cat, but simultaneously moved faster than light so that the Spire couldn't be both infinitely tall and exist at the same time, and since the Spire clearly did exist, we either had to be on the top or else we didn't exist. The universe could only resolve the contradiction by placing us at the top or erasing us from all existence, and since we had the Hauberk of Fundamental Reality (a divine relic) and the blessing of IO, we clearly had to exist, so we made it to the top."

Personally, I'd think that B would make a better story.

WELLL....
The Lady of Pain does not allow deities (and proxies etc) into her realm. I haven't read anything that will lead me to believe she places any limit on the power level of those who enter per se, I don't see why she would have a problem with level 100 characters walking in. Nothing in canon, I think, indicates she will even know.
I am not sure why you're saying she is a CR 210 creature. I know there is the dicefreaks version of her as a CR 208 being, but this is a fan site and as you noted fan-based material is not cannon material, we want to stick to WotC cannon as much as we can in this project. I am not at ALL inclined to believe the CR 208 estimation of dicefreaks: our level 100 characters have ~3,000 hp, do you think they will have ~15,000 at level 200?! I don't. I likewise don't believe many of her other statistics, like AC or overcoming immunities or being able to develop any epic spell immediately at no cost, are approriate for a CR 200 or for that matter for any creature. At any rate, at the power level she is presented at dicefreaks there is absolutely no point in using her statistics in the adventure, she might as well (and more simply) be left as effectively all-powerful within her demense.

I agree with Sage, on rereading the plot suggestions, that they seem to push the PCs too much. I think we should do the prodding a little more gently.
Specifically, I think encounters with overpowering opponents should be kept down to a minimum. This is a LEVEL 100 adventure, no one is going to play at these power levels normally so the characters need to be POWERFUL. The challenges should mostly lie in figuring out when and how to flex their power, and they should not be feeling overpowered as that diminishes the whole idea of playing at such a high power level. A few overpowering encounters/creatures are fine, but they really should be taken down a notch.

If I were to stat the Lady of Pain, for this adventure, I would make her about equal in power to the PCs in combat ability, so the PCs could take her if they united forces and acted wisely. Just to open up options; I'm a strong believer in giving the PCs options and not letting NPCs overshadow them.
I would also give her some unique powers the PCs don't have and won't have even if they killed her, such as the ability to control the portals in the City of Doors. That way the Lady may need their aid (as she can't leave her city, for example), and the PCs may need her aid (for getting those portals working like they want them to), and there is room for maneauvering.

I agree with most of this. Especially the part about giving the chars unique abilities so they have to work together in order to achieve their goals. With every challenge, we should have a solution (and perhaps only one is needed) in mind as to how it could be resolved, while remaining open to possible alternate solutions that we may not have thought of. Every workable solution that we come up with in play tests should be included in the DM's advice in the module, I think.

Ozmar the Random

 

[DM-Rocco]

Actually, the Outlands are also described as inifnite but are effectively about 1200 feet in radius.
I agree that we better stick to the official version of things as much as possible, though, and that the spire-climbing scene can be great; ditch the infinite spire shtick.


WELLL....
The Lady of Pain does not allow deities (and proxies etc) into her realm. I haven't read anything that will lead me to believe she places any limit on the power level of those who enter per se, I don't see why she would have a problem with level 100 characters walking in. Nothing in canon, I think, indicates she will even know.
I am not sure why you're saying she is a CR 210 creature. I know there is the dicefreaks version of her as a CR 208 being, but this is a fan site and as you noted fan-based material is not cannon material, we want to stick to WotC cannon as much as we can in this project. I am not at ALL inclined to believe the CR 208 estimation of dicefreaks: our level 100 characters have ~3,000 hp, do you think they will have ~15,000 at level 200?! I don't. I likewise don't believe many of her other statistics, like AC or overcoming immunities or being able to develop any epic spell immediately at no cost, are approriate for a CR 200 or for that matter for any creature. At any rate, at the power level she is presented at dicefreaks there is absolutely no point in using her statistics in the adventure, she might as well (and more simply) be left as effectively all-powerful within her demense.

I agree with Sage, on rereading the plot suggestions, that they seem to push the PCs too much. I think we should do the prodding a little more gently.
Specifically, I think encounters with overpowering opponents should be kept down to a minimum. This is a LEVEL 100 adventure, no one is going to play at these power levels normally so the characters need to be POWERFUL. The challenges should mostly lie in figuring out when and how to flex their power, and they should not be feeling overpowered as that diminishes the whole idea of playing at such a high power level. A few overpowering encounters/creatures are fine, but they really should be taken down a notch.

If I were to stat the Lady of Pain, for this adventure, I would make her about equal in power to the PCs in combat ability, so the PCs could take her if they united forces and acted wisely. Just to open up options; I'm a strong believer in giving the PCs options and not letting NPCs overshadow them.
I would also give her some unique powers the PCs don't have and won't have even if they killed her, such as the ability to control the portals in the City of Doors. That way the Lady may need their aid (as she can't leave her city, for example), and the PCs may need her aid (for getting those portals working like they want them to), and there is room for maneauvering.

While I think we need to stick to the rules as much as possible, there is a point, espeacially in making a 100th level adventure, that you have to adlib as it were. The Lady of Pain is such a case. Why, because to the best of my knowledge WOTC doesn't have stats for her, so we would have to make some. We don't have to use Dicefreaks version, but she is obsurdly more powerful than the Gods and she knows who goes in and out of her portals and denies, although seldomly so, people she chooses.

If you want to make a set of stats for her that is fine. It is just easier to use Dicefreaks version as they did all the hard work. You don't have to have her kill the PCs, which she would do as a DC 208 or 210 character, but it is always a great intimidation factor knowing that someone else is far more powerful than you will ever be.

I have an encounter in my version where she goes nuts on the PCs, but as a DC 210 in my version, she only fights then for a few rounds. If the PCs manage to get the upper hand somehow, she submits and requests thier aid, if she kills the PCs, she ponders her alternatives and realizes that she needs to stay in Sigil to hold together the city from the growing sphere of Annihilation and true resurrects the party and offers what aid she can and begs the PCs for help.

I have read source books in the past that state that if she dies, the city goes with her, so making her equal level to the PCs might not be a good thing since it would be simple for them to kill her. However, I was thinking that it may be cool to add to her definition of stats and have her health tied into the City itself. So, when every she took too much damage from a hit, a Sigil building would get destroyed as her health would be tied to the realm. If she took fire damage, some buildings would start to burn. This puts good PCs in a situation. Should they continue to attack or try to bargin with her.

I really was just going to have her as a plot device, something to further the progression of the plot and not somehting you attack. But when I started to write the event, I again reverted to the theory of "If you are going to make a 100th level adventure, throw everything at them while you can, cause you won't be able to again."

As to pushing them too much, it is a shame that I didn't expand on everything for the outline, but I thought it was long enough. I couldn't include everything, so I put in the major points, which happen to be the most dangerous. They are plenty of other areas for them to shine through and not be pushed to the limit, but you7 have to push them at some point, otherwise it will be boring. I use an example from the Original 100th level module H-4 the Throne of Bloodestone. They had a city of something like 10,000 undead and they intended for you to fight them. It must have slipped the play testers mind that a simple fly spell blew the whole encounter.

 

[DM-Rocco]

There are many infinities in the planes. The Abyss has an infinite number of infinite planes. Most planes are infinitely large - I think the exception is to find a finite plane. And the Spire is infinitely tall, but Sigil apparently floats on top of it (even though it has no top). The Planes are full of these kinds of paradoxes. At least, that's the way they are described "officially" in the Planescape setting, which is an AD&D setting (and which is one I am pretty familiar with).

That being said, I think it would be cool to have the characters resolve the paradox of climbing an infinitely tall spire to reach an unreachable summit. Perhaps by resolving a logical paradox, or by creating a counter-paradox that suggests a solution. (i.e., wherein they find themselve necessarily at the top of the Spire in order to resolve another paradox...)

Just some thoughts. Personally, I love the logical contradictions and have found that, (at least for me), they evoke the wonder and mystery of the planes. "You see a spire in the distance that stretches up into the sky without limit. Your mind reels trying to comprehend the infinitely tall structure. And at the top of the spire floats a ring." "Wait a minute! How does an infinitely tall spire have a top?" "You're not sure. And you begin to get a head-ache thinking about it..."

Fun.

Ozmar the Contradictory DM

*sigh* :\ Of course I know that some of the plains have infinite boundries, I was trying to put in in perspective of height, not width.

 

[DM-Rocco]

How else do you expect him to learn anything?



Agreed. But in terms of pacing, I recommend that we put the ego boosts earlier in the adventure, and then another one right after the first serious challenge. Maybe something like this...

1. Level 20 stuff. Face an impossible challenge (level 40?)
2. Boosted
3. Face the same impossible challenge and smear it.
4. Face an even bigger challenge (armies of fiends, CR 40 guy gets his "big brother", etc...) and smear it, too.
5. Face a real challenging challenge (appropriate CR)
6. Face another apparent challenge, but smear it.
7. Build up to the final big badda boom finale.

Something like that?

BTW - I'm really digging the whole outline so far, and am planning to run this at some future date, so keep up the great work!

Ozmar the Encouraging

Always good to hear from Ozmar the cheerleader

Anyway, I kind of do this but can be more clear on it. It was part of the reason I really wanted to have them climb the spire. It is huge in height and while the DCs for climbing it may be small, the encounters while climbing it in a no magic zone are meant to be very challenging for the original 20th level heroes. Later, when they have to fight their way back to the spire as 100th level heroes, they find it much easier.

Again, I have a lot of this in my head, so you won't see it on the outline, but your welcome to come inside if you want.

Er, bring a flashlight and a few Coronas while your at it

 

[Sage]

But when I started to write the event, I again reverted to the theory of "If you are going to make a 100th level adventure, throw everything at them while you can, cause you won't be able to again."

This makes no real sense: If you wan't to throw a powerful creature at your players, then yes, this is your chance, but by the sound of it with regards to the energons and Lady of Pain it would make no real difference weather the characters were 5th level or 100th level, thus defeating the "logic" of your theory.

 

[DM-Rocco]

This makes no real sense: If you wan't to throw a powerful creature at your players, then yes, this is your chance, but by the sound of it with regards to the energons and Lady of Pain it would make no real difference weather the characters were 5th level or 100th level, thus defeating the "logic" of your theory.

Hmm, in a sense, yes. But if you review the outline again, The Lady of Pain and the Energons are really the only over powering elements in the outline. The rest of it are challenges for 100th level characters, hopefully anyway.

The Lady of Pain, while powerful, is only really a minor part of the story, even though I scheduled a fight for the PCs. There is a reason that the encounter with The Lady of Pain is in chapter 7, it is because by then the PCs will be getting to feel very cocky and comfortable in their capacity as 100th level engines of Destruction. She is there to mainly put things back in place and keep the PCs inline.

As to the Energons, I picture them also as a plot advancement. Yes, they are more powerful than the PCs, but they are not meant to be fought but guided. Their power level is there for those brash PCs who like to play hack-n-slash games. Think of the Energons more like the Beyonderer from the Marvel Comics Secret Wars II series. He is made up of a whole universe, he is a universe in human form. He is seeking the meaning of life, mortality, death. He, at one point, killed Death with the flick of a finger, which in D&D terms would be a being with 5,000 hit points and DR 5,000 damage reduction and immunities to just about everything, just so you get an idea of how powerful Death is in The Marvel universe.

The Energons don't have the unlimited power of the Beyonderer, but they do have a lot of power as they are now beings of raw power and are tied to the magical event at the top of the Spire. While the Energons are more powerful than the PCs, the trouble, whether intentionally or not, they cause in the mutli-verse due to their curiosity are encounters that would be appropriate for 100th level characters, or close to it anyway.

Does that make more sense?

 

[Sage]

Does that make more sense?

Ok, it makes more sense now

 

[Yair]

I've been thinking a bit about the plot, and power levels. I think we have a problem that it's really is the NPC's show that the players just happen to crash, the PCs take too much of a reactive and observing role instead of taking the initiative and a proactive role.

We begin, at level 20, with a crises forming and the PCs coming to the rescue. Not a problem, that's the way to start an adventure.
The crises cannot be successfully dealt with. In fact, it wouldn't be such a big problem without PC/NPC intervention. That is a problem, the PCs actions and failures should have an appropriate impact on the adventure. I am willing to accept the universe crumbling regardless of player actions at this stage as a necessary plot driving theme, but the manner and extent should be dependant on the players' success.
I suggest having an "Extinction Scale" running throughout the adventure. As time moves on the ES increases (or counts down?), creating more and more devastating effects until it reaches its end point when the multiverse is truly destroyed. If the PCs succeed in interfering with the ritual, or at any other adventure, the ES is not advanced, or advances to a lesser extent.
I think I've seen such a scale in The Apocalypse Stone; I'll dig it up and post a version of it so you can see what I mean.
The two casters should be aiming for (or causing) a more severe catastrophe. PCs actions should alleviate it (potentially).

Following the spire-top adventure, the adventure gets very hazy for me with lots of conflicting versions and storylines. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

I have a problem with what the deities are doing about all of this. In my opinion, deities (following the Divine SRD guidelines; I don't have Faiths and Pantheons with me right now) vary in power from CR ~55 to CR ~150. They are not powerless, and can pretty much outdo the PCs, at least the greater deities. So we need to understand why they aren't acting, or what they ARE doing.
I suggest that they are not uniform in manner or capability. Some, mostly hot-headed and unsubtle, should take direct action and fail - as a warning to the PCs and to indicate guile is needed rather then just mere force. Generally, I think the greater gods and their buddies should not act because they can see the future, and they know they don't need to act - the PCs will take care of things just fine without their intervention, so they can focus on supporting their goals and leave rescuing the world to the heroes of the hour, as usual. The divinities in general should show very little interest in actively solving the problem under this regime; they might take a more active role in exploiting it, though.

I am not sure I like the energons as presented, they are too much of a baby the PCs have to clean after. Their schemes should be more subtle and intentional, allowing the PCs to expose and counter them, slowly leading up to facing off with them as a main BBEG. I am thinking of the Excursians from Nobilis here - subtle plays on meaning that seek to undermine the sense behind reality, schemes that will lead to the downfall of cosmic order.
For example, instead of simply stepping into heaven and nuking things, the energon might be whispering into the good god's ears, subverting them to evil. Slowly, Heaven is turned into Hell by subvertion and growing tyranny. As a result, the distinction between Heaven and Hell is lost and the two planes clash and meld with each other, a step in the unmaking of the mutliverse.

I would add more, but I think I've said enough for one post.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I've been thinking a bit about the plot, and power levels. I think we have a problem that it's really is the NPC's show that the players just happen to crash, the PCs take too much of a reactive and observing role instead of taking the initiative and a proactive role..

*In best Yoda voice* Always with you what can't be done

We begin, at level 20, with a crises forming and the PCs coming to the rescue. Not a problem, that's the way to start an adventure.
The crises cannot be successfully dealt with. In fact, it wouldn't be such a big problem without PC/NPC intervention. That is a problem, the PCs actions and failures should have an appropriate impact on the adventure. I am willing to accept the universe crumbling regardless of player actions at this stage as a necessary plot driving theme, but the manner and extent should be dependant on the players' success.
I suggest having an "Extinction Scale" running throughout the adventure. As time moves on the ES increases (or counts down?), creating more and more devastating effects until it reaches its end point when the multiverse is truly destroyed. If the PCs succeed in interfering with the ritual, or at any other adventure, the ES is not advanced, or advances to a lesser extent.
I think I've seen such a scale in The Apocalypse Stone; I'll dig it up and post a version of it so you can see what I mean.
The two casters should be aiming for (or causing) a more severe catastrophe. PCs actions should alleviate it (potentially).

I seem to remember reading the Apocalypse Stone, if you can find it and scan and post that section, I too think it would be good to put the PCs on time crunch.

Following the spire-top adventure, the adventure gets very hazy for me with lots of conflicting versions and storylines. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

I have a problem with what the deities are doing about all of this. In my opinion, deities (following the Divine SRD guidelines; I don't have Faiths and Pantheons with me right now) vary in power from CR ~55 to CR ~150. They are not powerless, and can pretty much outdo the PCs, at least the greater deities. So we need to understand why they aren't acting, or what they ARE doing.

I know they are not powerless, but a trip to the top of the spire is something that they would not do, regardless of power. All powers, including divine ranks, fade to nothing as you get closer to the spire until they no longer work. The Gods won't risk their own life by going into the Spire unless they had no choice. A few of the brave might, but not most. Until the magical event happens, no one truely knows that something is going to unravel universe. The whole point of having the begining of the story take palce at the top of the spire is that the Gods can't predict with their divine sight what is going to happen since it blocks all divine powers.

Now, the Gods start out the chapter knowing that something is wrong. All of them can see into the future, just no into the future pretaining to the spire. Before the magical event takes place, the future is normal. Once the magical event begins, the Gods can't tell the future, it is unsure. While this would be troubling for the Gods, their could be anyone of a million reasons why this is happening. The PCs get involved when the Gods ask the PCs to check out Sigil for clues to the problem. The Gods won't admit that they can't see the future anymore, but they are occupied elsewhere in the cosmos trying to figure out the riddle themselves. It is the PCs that discover in Sigil that something is happening on the top of the Spire, which is visible from Sigil.

Now they have to go and find out what is going on. The Gods should be, more often than not, should be glad to have the PCs check it out for them. A few might join in, but as the Spire prohibits magic and divine ranks, mostly fighter type would go.

That make more sense?

I suggest that they are not uniform in manner or capability. Some, mostly hot-headed and unsubtle, should take direct action and fail - as a warning to the PCs and to indicate guile is needed rather then just mere force. Generally, I think the greater gods and their buddies should not act because they can see the future, and they know they don't need to act - the PCs will take care of things just fine without their intervention, so they can focus on supporting their goals and leave rescuing the world to the heroes of the hour, as usual. The divinities in general should show very little interest in actively solving the problem under this regime; they might take a more active role in exploiting it, though.

Well, I think I covered most of this already, but I like the idea of a few of the Gods trying and failing. One of the versions I wrote had a few of the deities at the top of the Spire and fail to do anything worth while. I picture some of the Gods trailing around until they get to within a few hundred miles of the Spire and won't go any further because of the failing powers. I think we could also use the Gods to help the PCs by giving them artifacts, something we haven't really talked about yet, and also in trying to hinder the PCs, like the God of assassins trying to kill them or the God of Trickery trying to steal items or mislead the PCs.

I am not sure I like the energons as presented, they are too much of a baby the PCs have to clean after. Their schemes should be more subtle and intentional, allowing the PCs to expose and counter them, slowly leading up to facing off with them as a main BBEG. I am thinking of the Excursians from Nobilis here - subtle plays on meaning that seek to undermine the sense behind reality, schemes that will lead to the downfall of cosmic order.
For example, instead of simply stepping into heaven and nuking things, the energon might be whispering into the good god's ears, subverting them to evil. Slowly, Heaven is turned into Hell by subvertion and growing tyranny. As a result, the distinction between Heaven and Hell is lost and the two planes clash and meld with each other, a step in the unmaking of the mutliverse.

We really are on the same page here. I only presented a few senerios, the scope of the Energons is vast. I wanted to portray them as a Yin-n-Yang type of things. One is the embodiment of evil and the other of good. They have different ways of looking at the same thing was the way I was trying to portray them in the outline.

I thought it would be cool to have one start a war in the heavans while the other brought peace to the Blood War with nothing but words. I like to think of them as children. I like to think of them as rich spoiled children. Children whos parents don't care what they do, thus the one picking through the remains of a dead dragon. When the PCs get there, they don't know how the dragon died, it would be up the PCs imagination to assume that the child did or did not kill it. Picking through the remains of a dead creature is something that most serial killers have done at one time or another, before moving on to murder. It is a curiosity, something that children do. They might later go on a killing spree with their powers, but ultimately they would be tempted to find other ways to do the same thing, like whispering into the ears of the Gods in the celestial heavans and having them start a war with each other with nothing but words.

So, while what I wrote didn't cover everything, I think we are on the same page.

I think we should take everything one section at a time. Let's work on the opening part and flesh it out. I think we are closer in thought than you think and once we start to work on it you will agree.

I would add more, but I think I've said enough for one post.

Bring it on

I'll answer anything you throw at me, but I think we should really just work on one section at a time and I think you will find that we are closer in thought than you think.