Sex, Violence, Drugs and other naughty things
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WayneLigon
Adventurer
Sex: The details are usually glossed over, but it certainly does happen and happen on-screen. Most of the PC's are usually sexually active, though rarely with each other. Marriage happens, relationships are strained or grow closer and stronger, they fall in and out of love, use sex as a bargaining chip or intimidation tactic, children are made and taken care of; it strengthens loyalty, heightens betrayal, is a driving force and a sideline, gets them in and out of trouble, etc. In short, pretty much like RL.
Graphic Violence: Depends. For important battles or interesting combinations of tactics/die rolls/damage rolls, I'll get more descriptive. Usually 'you hit' has something added to it: 'He's bleeding badly but looks ready for more' or 'He's staggering; he doesn't look long for this world' to (one hit, one kill) 'He's standing there, ready to fight, then your axe just opens his throat up; he falls back, there is blood pumping in time to his heartbeat for a few seconds, then it stops', or 'He screams, falls clutching his leg; it's obviously ruined. Without healing magic, he'll never walk again', or (critical, leaving the guy maybe 1 hp)) 'You drive your sword through his side; he crumples, curls around the wound and lays there crying' down to 'He blinks, looks at the sword in his chest, then closes his eyes'.
Call of Cthulhu or other horror games get a lot more description, with as much analogy as I can put into it, which comes back to bite them at the oddest times. ('You get the normal salad for dinner, and it has these little diced tomatoes on it. Odd, how they look like Frank looked once that Star Spawn was done with him last year'. 'Waiter... I'm not hungry'.)
Drugs: Generally as something being smuggled or sold illegally. Don't really have any religions that use them; the rare ecstatic cult will generally use the power of their god to achieve that state.
Graphic Violence: Depends. For important battles or interesting combinations of tactics/die rolls/damage rolls, I'll get more descriptive. Usually 'you hit' has something added to it: 'He's bleeding badly but looks ready for more' or 'He's staggering; he doesn't look long for this world' to (one hit, one kill) 'He's standing there, ready to fight, then your axe just opens his throat up; he falls back, there is blood pumping in time to his heartbeat for a few seconds, then it stops', or 'He screams, falls clutching his leg; it's obviously ruined. Without healing magic, he'll never walk again', or (critical, leaving the guy maybe 1 hp)) 'You drive your sword through his side; he crumples, curls around the wound and lays there crying' down to 'He blinks, looks at the sword in his chest, then closes his eyes'.
Call of Cthulhu or other horror games get a lot more description, with as much analogy as I can put into it, which comes back to bite them at the oddest times. ('You get the normal salad for dinner, and it has these little diced tomatoes on it. Odd, how they look like Frank looked once that Star Spawn was done with him last year'. 'Waiter... I'm not hungry'.)
Drugs: Generally as something being smuggled or sold illegally. Don't really have any religions that use them; the rare ecstatic cult will generally use the power of their god to achieve that state.
Henry
Autoexreginated
For our games:
Sex: It's there - characters sometimes visit brothels, rapists exist, evidence turns up that implicates some NPCs in kinky stuff - but we "fade to black" and we don't use any rules for implications and the like.
DRUGS: No real-world drugs, and for the most part, alcohol and pipeweed are the main vices. In some homebrews, I've invented some alcohols bordering on hard narcotics (black lotus-type liquors) and there was a war once fought for control of Hobgoblin Mash.
VIOLENCE: We don't go into viscera, but we use Wasteland-style descriptors when we're in a silly mood ("You explode him like a Blood Sausage!" "He spins around from the blow in a dance of Death!", etc.) For those who don't remember Wasteland, it was an early Post-apocalyptic computer RPG that was one of the most fun games I've ever played.
Sex: It's there - characters sometimes visit brothels, rapists exist, evidence turns up that implicates some NPCs in kinky stuff - but we "fade to black" and we don't use any rules for implications and the like.
DRUGS: No real-world drugs, and for the most part, alcohol and pipeweed are the main vices. In some homebrews, I've invented some alcohols bordering on hard narcotics (black lotus-type liquors) and there was a war once fought for control of Hobgoblin Mash.
VIOLENCE: We don't go into viscera, but we use Wasteland-style descriptors when we're in a silly mood ("You explode him like a Blood Sausage!" "He spins around from the blow in a dance of Death!", etc.) For those who don't remember Wasteland, it was an early Post-apocalyptic computer RPG that was one of the most fun games I've ever played.
Vaxalon
First Post
Here's the difference...
Violence is a "naughty" activity that is culturally acceptable to partake of in groups (war, law enforcement, etc) but not culturally acceptable to partake of in one-on-one (muggings, rape, torture, etc).
Sex is a "naughty" activity that is not culturally acceptable to partake of in groups (orgies, etc.) but culturally acceptable to partake of in one-on-one.
RPG's are generally a group activity. When they are one-on-one, it's much easier to include sex in the game... and lots of fun.
Violence is a "naughty" activity that is culturally acceptable to partake of in groups (war, law enforcement, etc) but not culturally acceptable to partake of in one-on-one (muggings, rape, torture, etc).
Sex is a "naughty" activity that is not culturally acceptable to partake of in groups (orgies, etc.) but culturally acceptable to partake of in one-on-one.
RPG's are generally a group activity. When they are one-on-one, it's much easier to include sex in the game... and lots of fun.
Arnwyn
First Post
My group:
Violence: Probably the most detailed. We're still pretty much with the "hit & miss" in describing combat, but certain high damage hits might get a bit of additional 'color'. We also sometimes describe the consequences and aftermath of violence, which can sometimes be gruesome.
Sex: Has never come up, and with our group consisting of entirely males, it likely won't.
Drugs: It's there, but we haven't done anything with it yet. Won't shy away from it when we do.
Language: A decent amount of swearing, but not a ridiculous amount.
Violence: Probably the most detailed. We're still pretty much with the "hit & miss" in describing combat, but certain high damage hits might get a bit of additional 'color'. We also sometimes describe the consequences and aftermath of violence, which can sometimes be gruesome.
Sex: Has never come up, and with our group consisting of entirely males, it likely won't.
Drugs: It's there, but we haven't done anything with it yet. Won't shy away from it when we do.
Language: A decent amount of swearing, but not a ridiculous amount.
RandomUsernamehmimo71
Explorer
My gameworld of Alsatia tends to be on the rather dark gritty side of the fence, and doesn't particularily shy away from any topics, these included. But like anything, it has to be part of the compaign that it's in.. Everytihng for a reason, everything with a consequence.
We certainly have foul language in the gameworld, but it's used for effect, and to help show differences in areas of the realm. Grensha, a city founded by, and maintained by temples to the many gods, generally has a far cleaner mouth, than that of Voushta, a city roughly equivalent to Las Vegas.. "You can get it, in Voushta", or so the saying goes.
But language is used as a factor, along with accents, names, and demeanor as a tool to help the players make the determination of where someone's from, often without the roll of a die.
It can also help to indicate relative class level. In Alsatia, as in much of the modern world, those who are of a higher statusare less likely to swear, than those who might be froma more humble background.
One thing I've always respected about StarWars games is their Blast expression.. If I had the time and ambition, I'd add more Gameworld specific curses to the game, as they Certainly add flavor. We do have some now, but they tend to be more variations on Earthisms. "By Sarx!", one might utter in a moment in which the gods (figuratively)turn against him, and luck in running dry.
Sex- Sex is certainly an element that manifests within the game. As I said in my introduction, everything that occurs, occurs for a reason, and sex is no exception. I find it frustrating, for instance, if when reading a story, the author will go into great detail of a courtship, detail the distinct look and feel of the room in which they stay, the way she looked into his eyes, and then cheat the audiance with something to the effect of "And then they had sex."
It breaks from the feel of the story, and isn't fair.
Now, that said, I know what I can get away with, with certain players more, with others less.. My girlfriend is one of the players in said game, so she and the NPCs get more detail, but that happens away from the other players, for everybody's comfort.
But that said, Bad things happen. We've had a lingering demon whom one of the PCs accidentily freed. As unfortunate as that was, the demon has had a bit of an interest in her since that incident, and has been fought on a few occasions. But in a recent game, he needed her attention for a plot line, and so he found her, alone in the desert.
And he spoke nicely to her, as he held her down, and made himself comfortable inside of her. He's not a particularly nice character, and rape is certainly inside his range of normal behavior. The PCs did find evidance of him, thankfully off scene, cutting a hole into a (hopefully dead) little boy's stomach cavity in order to fullfill himself..
And we've had Loving sex, with PCs falling in love within the game, and kissing, holding, and eventually marrying characters.. PCs have been given the chance to do whatever they want, and we see both good and bad from it.
As I said, it's an element in the story. The game isn't about that, but it's something that can come up, and it's not fair to avoid it. But it all depends on the situation.. Sex is never just there for the sake of having sex be there.
As for Drugs, again we certainly have them in our game. The PCs don't partake, for the most part, because the tend to hamper performance, or at least make you care little enough
But one of our most beloved (well.. At least one of MY most beloved) NPCs is a herbalist named Alexander, with whom the PCs often speak when they need a certain something extra.
Because of the way the gameworld is set up, In the towns of the north, near Grensha (City of Many temples, remember), the distinction between medicine and "drugs" is made, where in many other places it isn't..
By Arling, a largish outgrowth of a city, made up primarily of Farmers who continued to migrate and move there in a vain attempt to make some money after recent food-price crashes, we see little distinction at all.
Corn is a Food, Beer is a Food, Black weed is a food, Thyme is a food, khaf leaf (some one else's post, but cool!) would be a food. There is no arbitrary distinction between "This is a Good plant, this is a wicked sinful plant"
In Nagog, a city which has far more of an evolved ritualistic government structure, we have seen the use of several herbs, which tend to be prepared in a very standard way, as they have for thousands of years. Tying perhaps into sex, as above, they have certain herbs that they sometimes wash a woman with, or give her to wash with, that would cause her body to tingle, almost like hydrogen peroxide on Earth, to try to make her feel nice...
Violence- We certainly have violence in the gameworld, but not as much as I'd like, as a limitation of myself as a GM. We have a lto of violence that occurs outside of direct combat, such as a major villian of a fireign army being killed, and allowing himself to be torn to pieces, for the good of his army and people.. (Long story
Torture cerainly exists, both physical and mental.. We've had entire game solo sessions focused on the torture of a player's character, involving locking him in a cell, and breaking his spirit, forcing him to do the bidding of a evil master in order to get a scrap of food this week, or to avoid being sliced by a wire..
We've had characters locked in 6x6x6 cells, with nothing to eat but the cockroaches they can catch scurring to feast on neayby corpses, and nothing to drink but the condensation of water against the bars...
We certainly have a bloody, and violent workd, but I certainly need to work on in-game-combat violence. To often in combat, I'll give a generic enough description, such as "Character A will swing her sword aroung again, finally with enough momentum to get past his damage resistance, and cut into him.", Rather than a longer, description of swinging the sword, cutting into him faster than even his wounds can close themselves, his flesh sealing around your blade, his black blood running down the length of the sword, and starting to run against your hands..
I find that I tend to get too distracted by the combat rules, for one, and for another, players get anxious, and want to get on with the fight.
It's childish, perhaps, and I hope we get better...
In free-form games, I'll often spend an hour describing and playing out a single combat, detailing each blow, each action, and letting players react in the same way.. That's a lot more fun, but takes a lot longer, works well only with certain types of players..
In all though, we use whichever elements of the world make sense in the story, and work to try to create a more engaging, involved gameworld, that the players can feel immersed in. It would seem horribly unfair to avoid any of those, or any other, subjects, as they occur in real life..
But we aim more for an interactive story, somewhat directed to fit D20 Fantasy rules.
Interesting thread, and Good question!
Colin "Isn't a game but a relfection of reality" Davis
Edit- Added more about violence and torture, as it was pointed out I missed it.
We certainly have foul language in the gameworld, but it's used for effect, and to help show differences in areas of the realm. Grensha, a city founded by, and maintained by temples to the many gods, generally has a far cleaner mouth, than that of Voushta, a city roughly equivalent to Las Vegas.. "You can get it, in Voushta", or so the saying goes.
But language is used as a factor, along with accents, names, and demeanor as a tool to help the players make the determination of where someone's from, often without the roll of a die.
It can also help to indicate relative class level. In Alsatia, as in much of the modern world, those who are of a higher statusare less likely to swear, than those who might be froma more humble background.
One thing I've always respected about StarWars games is their Blast expression.. If I had the time and ambition, I'd add more Gameworld specific curses to the game, as they Certainly add flavor. We do have some now, but they tend to be more variations on Earthisms. "By Sarx!", one might utter in a moment in which the gods (figuratively)turn against him, and luck in running dry.
Sex- Sex is certainly an element that manifests within the game. As I said in my introduction, everything that occurs, occurs for a reason, and sex is no exception. I find it frustrating, for instance, if when reading a story, the author will go into great detail of a courtship, detail the distinct look and feel of the room in which they stay, the way she looked into his eyes, and then cheat the audiance with something to the effect of "And then they had sex."
It breaks from the feel of the story, and isn't fair.
Now, that said, I know what I can get away with, with certain players more, with others less.. My girlfriend is one of the players in said game, so she and the NPCs get more detail, but that happens away from the other players, for everybody's comfort.
But that said, Bad things happen. We've had a lingering demon whom one of the PCs accidentily freed. As unfortunate as that was, the demon has had a bit of an interest in her since that incident, and has been fought on a few occasions. But in a recent game, he needed her attention for a plot line, and so he found her, alone in the desert.
And he spoke nicely to her, as he held her down, and made himself comfortable inside of her. He's not a particularly nice character, and rape is certainly inside his range of normal behavior. The PCs did find evidance of him, thankfully off scene, cutting a hole into a (hopefully dead) little boy's stomach cavity in order to fullfill himself..
And we've had Loving sex, with PCs falling in love within the game, and kissing, holding, and eventually marrying characters.. PCs have been given the chance to do whatever they want, and we see both good and bad from it.
As I said, it's an element in the story. The game isn't about that, but it's something that can come up, and it's not fair to avoid it. But it all depends on the situation.. Sex is never just there for the sake of having sex be there.
As for Drugs, again we certainly have them in our game. The PCs don't partake, for the most part, because the tend to hamper performance, or at least make you care little enough
But one of our most beloved (well.. At least one of MY most beloved) NPCs is a herbalist named Alexander, with whom the PCs often speak when they need a certain something extra.
Because of the way the gameworld is set up, In the towns of the north, near Grensha (City of Many temples, remember), the distinction between medicine and "drugs" is made, where in many other places it isn't..
By Arling, a largish outgrowth of a city, made up primarily of Farmers who continued to migrate and move there in a vain attempt to make some money after recent food-price crashes, we see little distinction at all.
Corn is a Food, Beer is a Food, Black weed is a food, Thyme is a food, khaf leaf (some one else's post, but cool!) would be a food. There is no arbitrary distinction between "This is a Good plant, this is a wicked sinful plant"
In Nagog, a city which has far more of an evolved ritualistic government structure, we have seen the use of several herbs, which tend to be prepared in a very standard way, as they have for thousands of years. Tying perhaps into sex, as above, they have certain herbs that they sometimes wash a woman with, or give her to wash with, that would cause her body to tingle, almost like hydrogen peroxide on Earth, to try to make her feel nice...
Violence- We certainly have violence in the gameworld, but not as much as I'd like, as a limitation of myself as a GM. We have a lto of violence that occurs outside of direct combat, such as a major villian of a fireign army being killed, and allowing himself to be torn to pieces, for the good of his army and people.. (Long story
Torture cerainly exists, both physical and mental.. We've had entire game solo sessions focused on the torture of a player's character, involving locking him in a cell, and breaking his spirit, forcing him to do the bidding of a evil master in order to get a scrap of food this week, or to avoid being sliced by a wire..
We've had characters locked in 6x6x6 cells, with nothing to eat but the cockroaches they can catch scurring to feast on neayby corpses, and nothing to drink but the condensation of water against the bars...
We certainly have a bloody, and violent workd, but I certainly need to work on in-game-combat violence. To often in combat, I'll give a generic enough description, such as "Character A will swing her sword aroung again, finally with enough momentum to get past his damage resistance, and cut into him.", Rather than a longer, description of swinging the sword, cutting into him faster than even his wounds can close themselves, his flesh sealing around your blade, his black blood running down the length of the sword, and starting to run against your hands..
I find that I tend to get too distracted by the combat rules, for one, and for another, players get anxious, and want to get on with the fight.
It's childish, perhaps, and I hope we get better...
In free-form games, I'll often spend an hour describing and playing out a single combat, detailing each blow, each action, and letting players react in the same way.. That's a lot more fun, but takes a lot longer, works well only with certain types of players..
In all though, we use whichever elements of the world make sense in the story, and work to try to create a more engaging, involved gameworld, that the players can feel immersed in. It would seem horribly unfair to avoid any of those, or any other, subjects, as they occur in real life..
But we aim more for an interactive story, somewhat directed to fit D20 Fantasy rules.
Interesting thread, and Good question!
Colin "Isn't a game but a relfection of reality" Davis
Edit- Added more about violence and torture, as it was pointed out I missed it.
Last edited:
Remathilis
Legend
Sex: Implied more than explicit. Occasional threats of rape against NPCs (usually as a plot hook) or hints of nudity. Due to group dynamics, homosexuality isn't a taboo. Some PCs have gotten married and had kids.
Drugs: Some PCs drink, and drug pushers as villians. No PC addicts though.
Violence: Usually abstact, but some graphic images used to make a point for important points. Rarely bloody though.
Swearing: Usually, unless we DM Star Wars, no swearing in the GFFA.
Torture: Off Screen and handled abstactly against PCs.
Usually though, Adult issues are used only to further the story, not as an end itself. When used sparingly, its more gripping.
Drugs: Some PCs drink, and drug pushers as villians. No PC addicts though.
Violence: Usually abstact, but some graphic images used to make a point for important points. Rarely bloody though.
Swearing: Usually, unless we DM Star Wars, no swearing in the GFFA.
Torture: Off Screen and handled abstactly against PCs.
Usually though, Adult issues are used only to further the story, not as an end itself. When used sparingly, its more gripping.
IMC...
Cursing - Yes, there is much cursing and swearing.
Sex - Yes, there is some sex, between pcs, between pcs and npcs, between npcs. The particulars are usually glossed over (except sometimes for the actual seduction, the verbal foreplay). I also try to make an effort to keep track of the consequences of sex and relay that into the game.
Drugs - Usually yes, there are a variety of drugs (besides alcohol) available for use. Medicine in my campaign is mostly herbal. Sometimes, they are misused. Sometimes they are used exactly for what they do.
Violence - Yep, there is that. It is graphically described as often as possible. Not to the point of guts hanging out (unless, guts are actually hanging out), but loss of limbs is common.
I'd rate it a solid NC-17. All my players are mature adults who are comfortable with the themes, stories, and actions in the campaign world. I've been very lucky with players.
Cursing - Yes, there is much cursing and swearing.
Sex - Yes, there is some sex, between pcs, between pcs and npcs, between npcs. The particulars are usually glossed over (except sometimes for the actual seduction, the verbal foreplay). I also try to make an effort to keep track of the consequences of sex and relay that into the game.
Drugs - Usually yes, there are a variety of drugs (besides alcohol) available for use. Medicine in my campaign is mostly herbal. Sometimes, they are misused. Sometimes they are used exactly for what they do.
Violence - Yep, there is that. It is graphically described as often as possible. Not to the point of guts hanging out (unless, guts are actually hanging out), but loss of limbs is common.
I'd rate it a solid NC-17. All my players are mature adults who are comfortable with the themes, stories, and actions in the campaign world. I've been very lucky with players.
The Shaman
First Post
Most of my games would get a "PG-13" rating, while my now-inactive Sidewinder: Recoiled campaign earns a solid "R."
Sex happens - a PC seduced an NPC in a Modern game I ran awhile back, and there was a fair amount of wenching that went on in my old D&D campaign. Explicit details aren't provided - "You and the serving girl slip off to a quiet corner" (empty chamber, whatever). "After you've done your deed, what do you do?"
Sex was much more prominent in my Western game - prostitutes ("soiled doves," "sportin' women") were a big thing, and integral to the plot in many cases, and let's just say the PCs weren't going to get information by talking to them over a whiskey at a card table. The details of PC and NPC encounters weren't explicitly described, but the sounds of headboards banging, bedsprings squeaking, and loud gasping were commonplace in some of the more notorious "dance halls" and saloons in town.
Rape is a gaming taboo with me - not at my table. Ever.
Drugs are commonplace in most of my campaigns, as they are common in most societies in the real world. I had about a dozen different concoctions that I created for my D&D game, and one adventure centered on cleaning up a town where addiction was rampant thanks to a minor BBEG. Drinking games were a form of non-lethal competition, and the high-CON fighter was something of a master at this. Both pharmaceuticals and recreational drugs appear in my Modern campaign, so far only among the NPCs - none of the PCs dabble.
Addicts, including alcoholics, do appear as NPCs.
Peyote and opium are both featured prominently in my Western campaign, along with copious amounts of alcohol. (As an aside, my character in a 2e Boot Hill game many years ago was actually a better shot while drunk than sober - his accuracy dropped, but the increased bravery more than compensated! Needless to say, he spent a lot of time with a bottle in his hands!)
For the most part I don't glorify violence and bloodshed - if I give a graphic description of some kind, it's usually to create feeling of horror for the players and their characters. The torn and bloody remains of a human sacrifice may include some over-the-top elements like entrails spilled on the ground or what-have-you, but most of my combat descriptions are brief and to the point - "Your shot strikes him in the chest and he falls to the ground, motionless" - with a little bit of added detail for critical hits or massive damage - "Your bullet strikes him in the forehead and blood sprays over the wall behind him as he crumples to the floor."
Again, the only place I went a bit further afield with this was the description of cowboys mutilated by renegade Kiowas in my S:R game. Ritual mutilation of enemies was a big deal, and I wanted to emphasize that.
Torture occurs, but I don't get into graphic details - this may change if I have a chance to run a particular Modern game setting I've been working on, simply because it was prevalent in the historical setting where the game takes place. As far as how it's handled in-game, a player who decides that her PC is going to torture an NPC makes an Intimidate roll - I don't give bonuses for explicit descriptions of the methods used. The same is true of NPCs torturing PCs or cohorts - I'll describe the implements of torture in the torture chamber, but not how they're used.
Sex happens - a PC seduced an NPC in a Modern game I ran awhile back, and there was a fair amount of wenching that went on in my old D&D campaign. Explicit details aren't provided - "You and the serving girl slip off to a quiet corner" (empty chamber, whatever). "After you've done your deed, what do you do?"
Sex was much more prominent in my Western game - prostitutes ("soiled doves," "sportin' women") were a big thing, and integral to the plot in many cases, and let's just say the PCs weren't going to get information by talking to them over a whiskey at a card table. The details of PC and NPC encounters weren't explicitly described, but the sounds of headboards banging, bedsprings squeaking, and loud gasping were commonplace in some of the more notorious "dance halls" and saloons in town.
Rape is a gaming taboo with me - not at my table. Ever.
Drugs are commonplace in most of my campaigns, as they are common in most societies in the real world. I had about a dozen different concoctions that I created for my D&D game, and one adventure centered on cleaning up a town where addiction was rampant thanks to a minor BBEG. Drinking games were a form of non-lethal competition, and the high-CON fighter was something of a master at this. Both pharmaceuticals and recreational drugs appear in my Modern campaign, so far only among the NPCs - none of the PCs dabble.
Addicts, including alcoholics, do appear as NPCs.
Peyote and opium are both featured prominently in my Western campaign, along with copious amounts of alcohol. (As an aside, my character in a 2e Boot Hill game many years ago was actually a better shot while drunk than sober - his accuracy dropped, but the increased bravery more than compensated! Needless to say, he spent a lot of time with a bottle in his hands!)
For the most part I don't glorify violence and bloodshed - if I give a graphic description of some kind, it's usually to create feeling of horror for the players and their characters. The torn and bloody remains of a human sacrifice may include some over-the-top elements like entrails spilled on the ground or what-have-you, but most of my combat descriptions are brief and to the point - "Your shot strikes him in the chest and he falls to the ground, motionless" - with a little bit of added detail for critical hits or massive damage - "Your bullet strikes him in the forehead and blood sprays over the wall behind him as he crumples to the floor."
Again, the only place I went a bit further afield with this was the description of cowboys mutilated by renegade Kiowas in my S:R game. Ritual mutilation of enemies was a big deal, and I wanted to emphasize that.
Torture occurs, but I don't get into graphic details - this may change if I have a chance to run a particular Modern game setting I've been working on, simply because it was prevalent in the historical setting where the game takes place. As far as how it's handled in-game, a player who decides that her PC is going to torture an NPC makes an Intimidate roll - I don't give bonuses for explicit descriptions of the methods used. The same is true of NPCs torturing PCs or cohorts - I'll describe the implements of torture in the torture chamber, but not how they're used.
