Shadow Conjuration

[Thanee]

Since my Sorceress just picked up Greater Shadow Conjuration, I noticed a few unclear parts and now have a few questions about this spell.

1) Casting time is 1 standard action, does this mean I can mimick spells with a longer casting time (i.e. summon spells, but there are also some with a 10 minutes casting time), but it's still 1 standard action to cast them?

2) Spells that require a focus, like Leomund's Secret Chest, do they still require the focus, if you mimick them with a shadow spell? Seems kinda weird, especially with this particular spell, if not. I suppose, since the chest is also part of the spell effect, that you need it. What do you think?

3) Leomund's Secure Shelter - 60% chance that the spell works, and if it does, it's just like the original (tho, maybe a bit different in appearance)?

4) How would you rather have a mimicked Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron? 60% chance to work or 60% hit points?

5) When summoning with this spell, and having the summoned creature use a spell-like ability (i.e. Cure Serious Wounds or Continual Flame or Lightning Bolt), is that ability then real (but works only 60% of the time)?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jack Simth]

Since my Sorceress just picked up Greater Shadow Conjuration, I noticed a few unclear parts and now have a few questions about this spell.

1) Casting time is 1 standard action, does this mean I can mimick spells with a longer casting time (i.e. summon spells, but there are also some with a 10 minutes casting time), but it's still 1 standard action to cast them?

It's mimicing, not duplicating the spell, and it has it's own listed casting time, so.... 1 standard action (although if you cast a 10-minute spell with 1 standard action, I'd proably give people a DC 10 spellcraft check to get a +(excess over 10) bonus on their Will saves, as they KNOW you couldn't have cast that)

2) Spells that require a focus, like Leomund's Secret Chest, do they still require the focus, if you mimick them with a shadow spell? Seems kinda weird, especially with this particular spell, if not. I suppose, since the chest is also part of the spell effect, that you need it. What do you think?

It's an illusion that's faking it, and the spell has it's own listed components, so you make a quasi-real illusion of the chest and it's recall focus - careful though, as objects automatically succeed on their saves, you only have a 60% chance that any given item will go with (or come back, if your DM is feeling mean)

3) Leomund's Secure Shelter - 60% chance that the spell works, and if it does, it's just like the original (tho, maybe a bit different in appearance)?

60% chance that it will stop an arrow shot at it, 60% chance that it will stop a given raindrop, will save for someone who tries to Knock the door open to make it 60% likely that the spell that holds it shut just doesn't work for him; it's an illusion; everything makes it's saves individually as it becomes appropriet.

4) How would you rather have a mimicked Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron? 60% chance to work or 60% hit points?

Probably 60% hit points, as they have stated HP values - and you know, simplifies things vs. 60% chance that a non-believer will be able to walk straight through it. Also, don't try blocking anything that has a lot of spell resistance - you are liable to lose the entire wall.

5) When summoning with this spell, and having the summoned creature use a spell-like ability (i.e. Cure Serious Wounds or Continual Flame or Lightning Bolt), is that ability then real (but works only 60% of the time)?

If the targetted creature or object makes it's save (and objects always do, for that spell) then 60% chance for non-HP affecting stuff, 60% of the healing roll.

Bye
Thanee

Of course, this is just my interpertation.


If you really want to get a headache, consider Shades and Magnificent Mansion ... let's see... so that's an 80% chance that the feast is nourashing, if you make your save? What happens to people inside if someone with spell resistance runs into the door (which they can't get through, in any event)?

 

[Diirk]

It's an illusion that's faking it, and the spell has it's own listed components, so you make a quasi-real illusion of the chest and it's recall focus - careful though, as objects automatically succeed on their saves, you only have a 60% chance that any given item will go with (or come back, if your DM is feeling mean)

The chest is listed as one of the targets of the spell, and further the descriptive text specifies that the chest needs to cost 5000gp. So you'd still need the chest. Now while you don't technically need the focus item, the spell specifically states that you need it to get the chest back, and it only costs 50 gp anyway, so I'd just use it. For spells like Sepia Snake Sigil tho, they're certainly freebies.

60% chance that it will stop an arrow shot at it, 60% chance that it will stop a given raindrop, will save for someone who tries to Knock the door open to make it 60% likely that the spell that holds it shut just doesn't work for him; it's an illusion; everything makes it's saves individually as it becomes appropriet.

Disagree. It summons a (semi)real cottage made of stone; stone has hp/hardness values in the DMG, the hitpoints will be reduced as applicable. It will stop all arrows as stated, and also rain, these aren't considered 'non damage abilities'... its solid whether recognized as an illusion or not. Otherwise you'd get silliness such as an automatic miss chance of 40% against summoned creatures if you recognize them as illusions...
On the other hand, the arcane locks only have a 60% chance of working assuming the intruder makes his save, and the alarms... uh.. not sure which persons save is important for that, really...

Probably 60% hit points, as they have stated HP values - and you know, simplifies things vs. 60% chance that a non-believer will be able to walk straight through it. Also, don't try blocking anything that has a lot of spell resistance - you are liable to lose the entire wall.

60% hitpoints, they're solid objects, regardless of their origin. Also I'm pretty sure that blocking something with spell resistance wouldn't disrupt the spell; if a golem walks into an entangled area, the entangle spell doesn't just disappear does it ? I was under the impression it just failed to affect that one target.

If the targetted creature or object makes it's save (and objects always do, for that spell) then 60% chance for non-HP affecting stuff, 60% of the healing roll. Of course, this is just my interpertation.

I'd agree with this, but point out you can voluntarily fail your saving throw if you want to Of course any lingering effects will disappear when the spell ends regardless (apart from the heals)

If you really want to get a headache, consider Shades and Magnificent Mansion ... let's see... so that's an 80% chance that the feast is nourashing, if you make your save? What happens to people inside if someone with spell resistance runs into the door (which they can't get through, in any event)?

No headache, I'd voluntarily fail my save for a 100% chance to be nourished. And if someone with spell resistance ran into the door, the spell wouldn't fail; it would just fail to effect the person with spell resistance, as far as I'm aware. In which case nothing special happens, as he can't be transported into your pocket plane

 

[Jack Simth]

Ah, right - I had the effects of spell resistance wrong - too much reading of such things as Spiritual Weapon, which shatters when it hits SR it can't beat.

And yes, you can fail your save voluntairily - but still... just what are you eating when you eat a shadow feast? Sure, there are people living in the plane of shadow, but they tend to end up a bit twisted after a while; that stuff can't be good for you in the long run....

 

[Thanee]

Thanks for the replies, it's certainly not completely obvious how to figure some of the weirder effects (like the chest ).

Also, I forgot one question...

6) Summon Undead is an [EVIL] spell. Does that make a shadow conjured mimickry also [EVIL]?

With Greater Shadow Evocation via Summon Undead V my Sorceress (at 14th level now; caster level is 16th) can "rapid summon" four 17-HD huge cloud giant skeletons (with the errata'ed version), which are at least 60% effective. That sounds pretty good!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Oh, and another question...

7) Can you Stone Shape a shadow conjured Wall of Stone, i.e. is it actually stone then, or just "stuff"?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Caeleddin]

I think it is real, for all intents and purposes. It just have 60% of the hps of the original. So, yes, Stone Shape will affect it.

 

[Thanee]

(although if you cast a 10-minute spell with 1 standard action, I'd proably give people a DC 10 spellcraft check to get a +(excess over 10) bonus on their Will saves, as they KNOW you couldn't have cast that)

*g*

I think I would handle Spellcraft this way (goes a bit into house rule territory, my general house rule for illusions, mostly concerning Detect Magic is, that it simply counts as interacting and grants you a Will save, but does not automatically allow you to find out about the illusion, a failed save gives you an appropriate false reading): When you can see the spell being cast, you immediately get a Will (disbelief) save against it, if your Spellcraft check is high enough, otherwise you find out the mimicked spell is being cast (if your Spellcraft check was high enough to beat the DC for that at least).

If you do (that is fail your save), and there is such a duration discrepancy, you automatically know that it is an illusion, because you have a proof then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I think it is real, for all intents and purposes. It just have 60% of the hps of the original. So, yes, Stone Shape will affect it.

This is, what that question is based on:

A creature that succeeds on its save sees the shadow conjurations as transparent images superimposed on vague, shadowy forms.

It is definitely real (and therefore solid), but is it really stone?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

...but point out you can voluntarily fail your saving throw if you want to...

Heh. I'd not allow voluntarily failing your save against an illusion, if you know it is an illusion. If you do not know, you just make the save as normal.

Bye
Thanee