Shadow Creature Balanced?

[Drowbane]

...just being out during the day without any magic

Yeah, I was counting that as "daylight"

In our party, going about during the daytime just isn't too likely (vampire, two shadow creatures...).

Look, I'm not saying Pixie sucks. But if Pixie is LA 4 (or 6) then Shadow Creature is closer to 3 or 4 (planeshift 1/day beats out everything else Pixie gets).

 

[modred]

So, for a party with vampires in it; it's overpowered. For normal people; it's not so bad.

Granted, being out of the sunlight isn't too rare, but it's not all the time either. I can see the other players staying in shadowy areas for a vampire, but not for this. ("We must stay in the shadows! I must be invisible!", my players don't go out of their way this much for each other to power game)

I still think that only people who try to maximise on it's powers would make it unbalanced. For everyone else it would be fine. Since Night isn't all the time, and dungeons aren't too common, there's plenty of outside forest quests.

I would also just say that anything that negates invisibility negates this too, it doesn't explicitly state that they don't, only that the Light spells don't negate the conealment. Granted, it would probably be interpreted that Anti-invisibility spells wouldn't work against it, but GM's should balance stuff like this, and it's way easier to reinterpret something then to change the race by increasing the Level Adjustment.

 

[javcs]

The way we do it, the LA doesn't count ... only HD do, like for feats and stat boosts.

Shadow Creature doesn't get any stat adjustments. Sure they get a bonus to move silently, but it's essentially what a low power magic item could get. Sure they get a boost to their movement rate, but I consider anything beyond what they start with as not being included for purposes of their speed boost, so they're probably better off with haste.

You forgot 'Darkvision' and a lot of the time low-light vision as ways to negate shadowblend, as well. Plus any sort of non-visual sense, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight.

That planeshift 1/day that you seem to be vaunting beyond all the pixie gets, isn't really that great, it's to or from the plane of shadow ... <sarcasm> real useful that in planar campaigns or campaigns that regularly planeshift. </sarcasm> Beyond that, I believe that it's self-only ... I can't think of anybody who would take it unless they already had just about all of the other powers. Planeshift 1/day to/from the plane of shadows at 15th CL is only a decent ability. Planeshift is hardly accurate.

Pixies are better at higher levels than a shadow creature. Shadow creature is at it's best at lower levels, where the LA is vastly more punishing. Yeah, if you had a shadow creature that could use darkness with regularity, it could maybe start to break. But, most of the entities that can use darkness regularly not only get hurt by the LA badly, they're not too great to begin with. Warlocks and drow, I'm looking at you. Primary casters are not going to want to bite that LA except at high level play, where shadow creature is subpar, and outclassed by just about everything.

Shadow creatures certainly make good stealth type classes, but so do pixies.


Specifically in this case, we've got a PHB-race sorcerer 5 (newish to DnD, a WoD player), a PHB-race cleric 5 (flat-out newbie), and the shadow creature not-human-anymore scout 3 (in the hands of the resident DnD book), plus my (uncompleted) char which will only be on-screen as it were, half the time. We're probably going to be doing Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I expect that we will get owned repeatedly, the resident DnD book expects this as well until higher levels once everybody has gotten experience working together and the newer players get char-building sources and tips. He took the fast healing ability - his philosophy being that well, if it doesn't kill him, he wants to be able to heal up and get away, hopefully saving as much of the rest of the party as possible.
DM also, for some reason, requires us to have at least one negative modifier. The book and I both went WTF, mate? at that. I mean, I don't like that most chars tank charisma through the sub-basement, but, if I gotta have a negative modifer, it'll be in my least useful stat.

I personally see the Shadow Creature as balanced, but checking EnWorld is always a good bet for balance.


That got far longer than intended. If anybody actually read all this, I am impressed and I apologize for making you read my rambling.

 

[Drowbane]

So, for a party with vampires in it; it's overpowered. For normal people; it's not so bad.

Granted, being out of the sunlight isn't too rare, but it's not all the time either. I can see the other players staying in shadowy areas for a vampire, but not for this. ("We must stay in the shadows! I must be invisible!", my players don't go out of their way this much for each other to power game)

I still think that only people who try to maximise on it's powers would make it unbalanced. For everyone else it would be fine. Since Night isn't all the time, and dungeons aren't too common, there's plenty of outside forest quests.

I would also just say that anything that negates invisibility negates this too, it doesn't explicitly state that they don't, only that the Light spells don't negate the conealment. Granted, it would probably be interpreted that Anti-invisibility spells wouldn't work against it, but GM's should balance stuff like this, and it's way easier to reinterpret something then to change the race by increasing the Level Adjustment.

Normal people? Did I just get a "those people"? Wow... in this day and age. My vamp actually can tollerate sunlight (as long as his cloak doesn't get dispeled!)... the two shadow creatures avoid it like the plague.

If anti-invis spells worked on Shadowblend... I would have no reason to dislike the template at +2 LA. But that would be a much needed House Rule nerfing the template, not RAW.

You forgot 'Darkvision' and a lot of the time low-light vision as ways to negate shadowblend, as well. Plus any sort of non-visual sense, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight..

Darkvision and Lowlight do not help here. If its dark at your place, turn on all the lights in your house and look around. A Shadow Creature would be completely obscured from view in that. If you (or your DM if you're no the DM) run it differently, groovy... as written its too powerful. If I'm mistaken, may Hypersmurf smite me down with his greater knowledge of RAW!

That planeshift 1/day that you seem to be vaunting beyond all the pixie gets, isn't really that great, it's to or from the plane of shadow ... <sarcasm> real useful that in planar campaigns or campaigns that regularly planeshift. </sarcasm> Beyond that, I believe that it's self-only ... I can't think of anybody who would take it unless they already had just about all of the other powers. Planeshift 1/day to/from the plane of shadows at 15th CL is only a decent ability. Planeshift is hardly accurate..

Planeshift is a get out of jail free card. In a tight jam you can't get out of? Bamf to the Shadow plane... just make sure you have a method of teleportation to get back to the storyline afterwards. Never needed to run away from something?

Pixies are better at higher levels than a shadow creature. Shadow creature is at it's best at lower levels, where the LA is vastly more punishing. Yeah, if you had a shadow creature that could use darkness with regularity, it could maybe start to break. But, most of the entities that can use darkness regularly not only get hurt by the LA badly, they're not too great to begin with. Warlocks and drow, I'm looking at you. Primary casters are not going to want to bite that LA except at high level play, where shadow creature is subpar, and outclassed by just about everything..

I suppose that depends on how Shadowblend is run in your game. By RAW, greater invis is vastly inferior. If you let darkvision and anti-invisibilities negate Shadowblend, then sure.

By RAW, any non-caster could benefit greater from this ability. Ever played Warcraft III? Its alot like the Night Elves ability to hide in plain sight during nighttime... except a Shadowcreature can move and fight while still hidden.

I personally see the Shadow Creature as balanced, but checking EnWorld is always a good bet for balance.

You asked for opinions, and I've seen it in play.

As a DM, I let my PCs get away with murder for character creation... but Shadow Creature as written is nolonger available (right up there with anything that gives Incorporeal...). The DM can only have NPCs cast Daylight so many times before it becomes obvious you're trying to counter act the PC's ability.

Try having a shadowblended creature attack the party in a room that is fully lit up with torch light, or perhaps with a bonfire. Chances are your PCs will cast invisibility purge or see invisibility well before they think to cast Daylight in a room that is already bright enough to read in.

Anyways, far too much negativity being tossed at the guy who is just trying to be helpful. I'm out

 

[starwed]

Pixies and Shadow Creatures both get more than I bothered to list... nothing of note, however.

Pixie is one of the most potent PC creatures out there at high levels, they get:

• –4 Str, +8 Dex, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha.
• Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats
• permanent invisibility
• 60' flight (good)
• SR 15+level
• DR 10/cold iron

If you think that this is "nothing of note"...

 

[Nifft]

IMHO, Shadow Creature is balanced. It's balanced on the cool side rather than the strong side, though. LA +2 is harsh, even for critters who are going to benefit from all of its class abilities.

On the one hand, fast healing 2 is strong, plane shift to Shadow is strong (if you can get it twice per day, or if you have another source of plane shifting; otherwise, it's just suicide), and total concealment is strong (though as others note, it's not the same as free greater invisibility).

On the other hand, you don't get SR, you don't get any active special attacks. Sure, it's nice if you're going to Sneak Attack, but Sneak Attack isn't exactly difficult to arrange under normal conditions -- and you don't get any special benefit against the usual foes who are immune. And if you go for Sneak Attack, you're going to already have Evasion (one of the better special qualities), which reduces the value of the template.

IMHO, it's balanced for LA +2, but I wouldn't take it (because I hate LA).

Cheers, -- N

 

[silentspace]

Total Concealment unless within daylight. Thats better than greater invisibility.... and its (almost) always on.

Uh... how is this even close to greater invisibility? It's better than Hide in Plain Sight, but nowhere near greater invisibility...? Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

 

[Drowbane]

Uh... how is this even close to greater invisibility? It's better than Hide in Plain Sight, but nowhere near greater invisibility...? Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Total Concealment = no LoS.

In lay terms they can't see you. All the benefits of greater invisibility without it being "invisibility" and thus easily negated.

 

[Drowbane]

Pixie is one of the most potent PC creatures out there at high levels, they get:

• –4 Str, +8 Dex, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha.
• Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats
• permanent invisibility
• 60' flight (good)
• SR 15+level
• DR 10/cold iron

If you think that this is "nothing of note"...

Meh, you can do better with those other +2 LA and Shadowy...

 

[Nifft]

Total Concealment = no LoS.

In lay terms they can't see you. All the benefits of greater invisibility without it being "invisibility" and thus easily negated.

Er... I can name powers that grant total concealment but do not obscure your location.

Total concealment means a miss chance, not that you cannot be located.

Cheers, -- N