Dragonlance Shadow of the Dragon Queen - It doesn't suck... yet!

[MerricB]

G'day, folks!

Two sessions into Shadow of the Dragon Queen - that is, starting at level 2 and now reaching level 4, otherwise known as all of "Chapter 3", my report is...

It doesn't suck... yet!



It's been a while since I ran a hardcover published adventure from Wizards (the last was Descent into Avernus, which we didn't finish and I never want to finish, because I hate it that much). Covid really did stop my regular hardcover play. (My homebrew Greyhawk game continued without interruption).

I've rather enjoyed the peaceful beginning to Shadow of the Dragon Queen which just lasts long enough for the players to experience some feeling of "normality" before everything goes incredibly wrong. Let's see how the rest of it goes. We're playing online with weekly 3-hour sessions. Given my general method of running these things, I expect it'll take a minimum of 3-4 months, but we'll see. (I'm posting weekly reports to my blog).

Here's hoping that the strong opening manages to continue into a memorable campaign!

Cheers,
Merric

 

[MerricB]

Write-up of our second session is on my blog.

A few things I took away from the session:

I'm very conflicted on how I feel about Baaz Draconians turning opponents to stone as their "Death Throes". I think its incredibly disruptive to play if the characters roll poorly on their saves. And, let's face it, for an old-timer like me, trapping the weapon is so incredibly iconic. (I note that the dwarf in our party took a warhammer precisely because he knew about how the old draconians worked).

A big machine that does 5d10 fire damage in a 60-foot-cone against third-level characters? How exactly do you think that will turn out? I know designers like showing a threat, but that's the sort of design that can lead a DM to TPK a party. There's a real problem with some designers not thinking through what area effects can do. (I remember also a fireball spell that can be employed against 2nd-level characters in Descent into Avernus. Don't do that!)

The sustained nature of the battle - potentially five combats in a row - makes me long for the shorter "Short Rests" of 4E. It makes the pacing of this sort of sequence work a lot better. Guess what I've done?

Although I made sure not to incinerate the party, and gave them an opportunity to short rest in the middle, I was really pleased with the intensity of the Battle of Vogler. I do not think it would have been as fun playing the board game. Don't get me wrong, I like the board game, but it's not the same thing as playing your character.

Once again, I've included how long it took my group to complete each fight/sequence of the session.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[Zardnaar]

Something I noticed back in 2014/15. Low CR critters packing 3rd level spells.

LMoP had a flameskull iirc which coukd fireball you and PotA had C2 2 spellcaster with 3rd level spells

 

[Umbran]

LMoP had a flameskull iirc which coukd fireball you

At that point in LMoP, the party is expected to be Level 4, and the flameskull is a CR 4 monster. In addition, the party can easily go around the area it is in, and its presence is telelgraphed by how it glows in the freaking dark.

 

[TwiceBorn2]

At that point in LMoP, the party is expected to be Level 4, and the flameskull is a CR 4 monster. In addition, the party can easily go around the area it is in, and its presence is telelgraphed by how it glows in the freaking dark.

True. But it's a Starter Set adventure, and newish DMs may not necessarily think of the potential subtleties involved in the encounter, i.e., how to telegraph risk before the PCs blunder into the chamber and charge into battle.

 

[jasper]

One problem with DL is timing. Some of the encounters timing don't match the distance on the map.

 

[Umbran]

True. But it's a Starter Set adventure, and newish DMs may not necessarily think of the potential subtleties involved in the encounter, i.e., how to telegraph risk before the PCs blunder into the chamber and charge into battle.

By standard encounter building rules, looks like one flameskull is a medium encounter for four level four characters.

"Starter set" does not mean the whole thing should be a softball. One might say that an occasional risky bit is a proper learning experience for a starter set.

 

[Evaniel]

I'm glad you're enjoying it. My group has been playing it for the last several months and we're on the final chapter. While it's a bit more railroady than I generally like as a GM, it's been a great campaign. The attention to NPCs and place (especially in those early chapters) really gave my PCs some solid hooks to dig into and invest themselves in. I'd place it among my favorite 5e adventures with LMoP, WD: DH, and ID: RotFM.

 

[Zardnaar]

By standard encounter building rules, looks like one flameskull is a medium encounter for four level four characters.

"Starter set" does not mean the whole thing should be a softball. One might say that an occasional risky bit is a proper learning experience for a starter set.

The standard encounter building rules suck and the CR system is all over the place.

5E is default easy mode with a few exceptions around certain critters generally spellcasters and things like intellectual devourers and hell hounds/CR mooks with AoE attacks.

CR 2 and 3 stuff is enough CR to be around in numbers and buckets of hit points can't be killed fast enough if they use certain abilities/spells.

4 incoming fireballs or lightning bolts for example. 32d6 damage with 4 CR2 critters or you can use 4 ogres instead. Pack of hellhounds 7d6 breath weapons each. Low CR with large alpha strikes.

Or 1 ogre vs 1st level PCs vs 1 spellcaster same CR with level 3 spells. RAW they're supposed to be same encounter difficulty.

 

[MerricB]

A large part of where I stand on dangerous encounters is considering the overall context.

For the flameskull in Lost Mine of Phandelver, there's no time pressure on the party. They can retreat from the mine, heal up, and perhaps even get resurrection magic.

For the Dragon Engine (not its name) in Shadow of the Dragon Queen, it comes after three previous encounters and with one encounter to go, with no time to rest inbetween, nor get raised (especially as there are no clerics - well, certainly not high level ones).

(Then there are encounters like the Manticore in the Essentials Kit, which would be acceptable if the adventure went into detail about how a new DM could frame the encounter so it doesn't end up killing the PCs... but it doesn't, and is likely to be their first combat).

Cheers!

 

[Umbran]

The standard encounter building rules suck and the CR system is all over the place.

Fine.

I ran the adventure and encounter myself, for a couple of newbie, never played an RPG before, 13-year-olds choosing the party's approach. They didn't have any trouble with it.

So, by all means, continue to think the encounter is unreasonable if you wish. Your prerogative. But it doesn't match my experience. Fact is that LMoP has a reputation of being an outstanding module for good reason - and that reason is not over-powered encounters.

 

[Zardnaar]

Fine.

I ran the adventure and encounter myself, for a couple of newbie, never played an RPG before, 13-year-olds choosing the party's approach. They didn't have any trouble with it.

So, by all means, continue to think the encounter is unreasonable if you wish. Your prerogative. But it doesn't match my experience. Fact is that LMoP has a reputation of being an outstanding module for good reason - and that reason is not over-powered encounters.

LMoP is very good the flameshull was rough but you're level 4 or so by then.

There's worse encounters and critter design.

 

[Umbran]

LMoP is very good the flameshull was rough but you're level 4 or so by then.

Dude, you get in my face about the CR system, and then spit back at me the argument I ALREADY MADE?

Unreal. Freakin' unreal.

 

[Zardnaar]

Dude, you get in my face about the CR system, and then spit back at me the argument I ALREADY MADE?

Unreal. Freakin' unreal.

You're the one who passive aggressively said it was fine for our group and basically dismissed what I said. I've heard stories of tpks with that encounter. We had 3/6 go down iirc large party saved us.

CR system is wonky at best being generous.

How vad that encounter is comes down to size of party. Party composition and damage and saving throws.

Slightly higher than average damage can drop most pcs without a d10 or better hit dice.

So around 1 in 3 groups are potentially lookining at save or die if they're using fixed hp rules.

Basically I wouldn't dismiss claims it's a brutal encounter when badic math can reveal its potential for multiple deaths.

If you stumble nto it level 3 it's average dame us save or die for everyone who doesn't gave a d10 hit dice assuming a 14 or less con.

So yeah you were dismissing it vases on your groups playthroygh it's easier now due to power creep and spells like absorb elements.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Write-up of our second session is on my blog.

A few things I took away from the session:

I'm very conflicted on how I feel about Baaz Draconians turning opponents to stone as their "Death Throes". I think its incredibly disruptive to play if the characters roll poorly on their saves. And, let's face it, for an old-timer like me, trapping the weapon is so incredibly iconic. (I note that the dwarf in our party took a warhammer precisely because he knew about how the old draconians worked).

A big machine that does 5d10 fire damage in a 60-foot-cone against third-level characters? How exactly do you think that will turn out? I know designers like showing a threat, but that's the sort of design that can lead a DM to TPK a party. There's a real problem with some designers not thinking through what area effects can do. (I remember also a fireball spell that can be employed against 2nd-level characters in Descent into Avernus. Don't do that!)

The sustained nature of the battle - potentially five combats in a row - makes me long for the shorter "Short Rests" of 4E. It makes the pacing of this sort of sequence work a lot better. Guess what I've done?

Although I made sure not to incinerate the party, and gave them an opportunity to short rest in the middle, I was really pleased with the intensity of the Battle of Vogler. I do not think it would have been as fun playing the board game. Don't get me wrong, I like the board game, but it's not the same thing as playing your character.

Once again, I've included how long it took my group to complete each fight/sequence of the session.

Cheers,
Merric

Huh, I've had two characters turn fully into stone, one twice now, and it wasn't terribly disruptive (although it did ratchet up the tension a bit), and the only real result is that the character who has been petrified twice really hates baaz draconians now (the other player is playing a kender, so it was just a fun and new experience!). These occurrences, as well as the kapak draconian splashing acid everywhere when it died, have really driven home that the draconians are an actual scary threat, both in game and out.

My group managed to kill or incapacitate the draconians operating the "dragon" pretty quickly, so its "breath" never came into play.

(Also, in-depth discussions on CR issues is likely better taken to a different thread...)

 

[jasper]

One thing about the book, is information is sometimes scattered over the chapter. Like Names and reasons about the merc company. Or the fact that Kalaman does not like the knights. So read the chapter and take notes/cross reference before hand.