Shadow spell questions

[Lamoni]

Two questions...

1) Casting a shadow spell that mimics a spell with an expensive material component still works fine without the component, right?

For example, Shadow Evocation, Greater could cast Forcecage with no Ruby Dust worth 1,500 gp. With the drawback of there being a save and only being 60% real.

2) If you cast a shadow spell on an ally who voluntarily fails their save, does that make it work as if it is 100% real and prevent the enemy from getting any save?

For Example, Shadow Evocation could cast Resilient Sphere on an ally who is about to die. The ally voluntarily fails their saves. Is the enemy denied any save and just forced to pick a new target?

A 2nd example... One could use SE, Greater to cast Forcecage around the party during a battle vs some powerful Melee monsters. I know Forcecage normally allows no save, but is it correct to deny them a will save (due to being a shadow spell) because it was cast on the party?

 

[Particle_Man]

1) Yep, you get to cast the shadows of expensive spells without using expensive material components of the "copied" spell. Sometimes shadow spells have a shorter casting time than the "copied" spells, too.

2) I don't think that will work. Just because person #1 fails their save, so that a shadow spell is "real" to them, doesn't mean that person #2 doesn't get to save to see through the shadow spell. Thus while the defender could voluntarily fail their save, and thus not be able to make attacks out of a resiliant sphere, an attacker could roll a save and, if successful, have a % chance of making attacks through it. Also, I believe that objects "automatically" make saves vs. shadow spells, so ranged weapons would have a % chance of going through the sphere.

Ditto with shadowy forcecage.

 

[Lamoni]

2) I don't think that will work. Just because person #1 fails their save, so that a shadow spell is "real" to them, doesn't mean that person #2 doesn't get to save to see through the shadow spell.

Does this mean that you could trap someone with a shadow resilient sphere (they fail their save) and you could still cast spells at them since you wouldn't fail your own save? Your spells would still have a 20% chance of not passing through, but that still sounds pretty good... even better than the non-shadow version of the spell.

Edit: From the SRD...

Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.

So this means that the spellcaster could trap someone (it would have a normal effect), They could freely fire ranged weapons through it (but wouldn't try, due to believing they wouldn't pass through). Ranged attackers could shoot at them all they wanted with no chance of the arrows being blocked. And spellcasters that make their save can still cast spells while completely ignoring the sphere.

I think I like this use of the spell more and more. You get to trap people without hindering your ability to hurt them.

 

[Particle_Man]

You could trap someone for a little while, but as your arrows, etc., get through, that would provide "evidence" to the trapped being that the resilient sphere is not completely impermeable, which would either allow an extra save or might give the trapped person incontrovertible proof that it is an illusion, thus putting everyone on the same page again.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I had a sorcerer cast a shadow "Force Wall" around the party, and then spell cast at them through it. Freaked them out until someone figured out what was going on.

I basically gave any PC that interacted with the wall - tried to penetrate it, or attack through it - a Will save to ignore the effect, but since it was quasi-real it was still there.

 

[Lamoni]

You could trap someone for a little while, but as your arrows, etc., get through, that would provide "evidence" to the trapped being that the resilient sphere is not completely impermeable, which would either allow an extra save or might give the trapped person incontrovertible proof that it is an illusion, thus putting everyone on the same page again.

If you cast it on a dumb ogre, I don't think that it would give any proof that it is an illusion. The ogre wouldn't know what the spell was supposed to do. For all he knows, the spell is supposed to just keep him from moving and allow everything else to pass through. Now if it was an enemy wizard who had ranks in knowledge(arcana) and/or spellcraft, then I could see how it might grant them another save.

Plus, the whole idea of giving extra saves doesn't entirely make sense. The fact that it can trap them at all is due to it being shadow and partially real. If you fail your save, it is entirely real. If you make your save, it works as if it is entirely not there. Giving multiple saving throws doesn't seem like it would change the substance of the sphere and so it is debatable whether or not multiple saves should be allowed. If it was a damaging shadow illusion, then you still take a percentage of damage on a failed save... but for non-damaging spells the percentage has to be 100% of 0%. When you fail your save the first time, it proves that there is enough there to prevent your escape.

Even if you still gave the dumb ogre an extra save each round that things went through the sphere, they'd still have a very good chance of failing every time. I am looking forward to using this on the next dumb brute we face. This sounds better than Hold Monster. If you don't attack them, they don't get a save that round (if you decide that they get any additional saves) plus it lasts for 1 min/level rather than 1 rnd/level. Otherwise it is quite similar.

 

[Orichin]

Shadow illusions, being only 60% real, only bestow 60% of the bonus normally given, regardless of who believes they gave full effect and who saw through the illusory portion.

 

[Lamoni]

Shadow illusions, being only 60% real, only bestow 60% of the bonus normally given, regardless of who believes they gave full effect and who saw through the illusory portion.

Could you give me an example of what you mean by that statement? I am assuming that you are only referring to Shadow Evocation, Greater. Shadow Evocation grants 20%.

If I use Shadow Evocation to cast a fireball.
Player A makes his will save and fails the reflex save
Player B fails both his will save and his reflex save.

Both Player A and Player B only take 20% damage? What is the point of the will save if it has no effect?

 

[Lamoni]

This thread has done anything but make these spells more clear in my mind. At least I understand the answer to my first question, thanks Particle Man.

Could someone step through what would happen if my sorcerer decided to use Shadow Evocation, Greater to create a forcecage on a group of 4 Ogres? Including the initial saving throw, the party's saving throw?, additional saving throws?, what exactly does making a saving throw mean for the creature?, etc. If there are any differences, then stepping through using Shadow Evocation to trap someone with O's Resilient Sphere would probably help more since that is a spell I can cast now (It'll be a while before I get level 8 spells).

I believe I understand how damaging spells work... you get a will save first. If you fail, you take 100% damage (or 50% on a save). If you make the save, you take 20%/60% (or 10%/30% on a save). If this is incorrect, please let me know. Of course it depends on whether or not the spell you are duplicating allows a save or not for partial damage, but that save is rolled normally except at the higher DC since it is a higher level spell (level 5 or 8).

 

[calypso15]

Could someone step through what would happen if my sorcerer decided to use Shadow Evocation, Greater to create a forcecage on a group of 4 Ogres? Including the initial saving throw, the party's saving throw?, additional saving throws?, what exactly does making a saving throw mean for the creature?, etc. If there are any differences, then stepping through using Shadow Evocation to trap someone with O's Resilient Sphere would probably help more since that is a spell I can cast now (It'll be a while before I get level 8 spells).

So, you cast a shadow forcecage around a group of ogres. They receive no saving throw, as forcecage doesn't grant one. So, you have 4 ogres surrounded by a shadow forcecage.

An ogre decides to test it. He tries to move through it, thereby interacting with it. He gets a will save in order to realize that it's an illusion. If he makes his will save, he still has a 60% chance of being blocked, because the wall is at least partially real. If he fails his will save, he cannot move through the forcecage. Each ogre gets their own will save.

However, ogre #2 makes his save and manages to move through the forcecage. He turns to ogre #1 and says "It's an illusion, dood!11!". This is where it gets fuzzy, but my interpretation is that ogre #1 gets a new will save with a +4 bonus due to evidence. If he still fails, his feeble mind cannot comprehend the idea of an illusory wall that is still kinda there. If he saves this time, he STILL has a 60% chance of being blocked, because the forcecage is part real.

Same thing if the party tries to attack the ogres through the forcecage. If they've been blocked, but they see that the party can attack through it (still only 40% chance of that), then they might get new will saves with a bonus.

All of this is the same as Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.

Calypso