Shadowdark Shadowdark Discussion Thread [+]

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Mythic Bastionland is a whole different type of game, though I agree that it's an awesome choice if the kind of fantasy you want to play is journeying on knightly and mythic quests, rather than dungeon crawling verging on survival horror.

I think Kelsey's paladin, ironically, is more designed for the kind of game you'd with Mythic Bastionland. I don't dislike her paladin the way @Bill Zebub does, but it does feel a bit like a square peg in a round hole, unless future Shadowdark games broaden the game's focus a lot more to encompass the very broad scope of B/X or even BECMI.

 

[Scribe]

Call me crazy, but I'm not seeing the issue with it.

 

[Mannahnin]

I'm not quite clear on it either. @Whizbang Dustyboots could you expand on that a bit?

Do you see a mechanical issue with it, like a warhorse not being practical in a game you see as being focused on dungeon-crawling? Or is it more of a vibes thing, getting a free magic sword not lining up with the mood if you see the game as hardscrabble pulp, marked by desperation? Or something else?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm not quite clear on it either. @Whizbang Dustyboots could you expand on that a bit?

Do you see a mechanical issue with it, like a warhorse not being practical in a game you see as being focused on dungeon-crawling? Or is it more of a vibes thing, getting a free magic sword not lining up with the mood if you see the game as hardscrabble pulp, marked by desperation? Or something else?

The horse is emblematic of the issue, IMO. The paladin is designed for open world adventuring and noble, heroic adventures. And in Shadowdark, they're mostly going to not be doing either of those.

I think Arthurian stuff is great and will rave for hours about The Bright Sword at the drop of a hat, but I wouldn't run Arthurian stuff in Shadowdark, myself. I think it's just an awkward fit at best.

In Shadowdark, I'd either go with an anti-fiend, anti-undead paragon or a morally complex zealot with a sword. In each case, I would probably be drawing from the Diablo franchise rather than Arthurian myth, which is where I think Kelsey pulled from.

I don't dislike her paladin, but I don't think it would fit into most of my Shadowdark games so far. Like I said previously, I'm likely to create my own in future, probably pulling from both AD&D and Diablo.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The horse is emblematic of the issue, IMO. The paladin is designed for open world adventuring and noble, heroic adventures. And in Shadowdark, they're mostly going to not be doing either of those.

I think Arthurian stuff is great and will rave for hours about The Bright Sword at the drop of a hat, but I wouldn't run Arthurian stuff in Shadowdark, myself. I think it's just an awkward fit at best.

In Shadowdark, I'd either go with an anti-fiend, anti-undead paragon or a morally complex zealot with a sword. In each case, I would probably be drawing from the Diablo franchise rather than Arthurian myth, which is where I think Kelsey pulled from.

I don't dislike her paladin, but I don't think it would fit into most of my Shadowdark games so far. Like I said previously, I'm likely to create my own in future, probably pulling from both AD&D and Diablo.

Very much agree.

And let me know when you need a playtest of your morally complex zealot with a sword.

 

[Scribe]

But dont we have one? From CS1?

To each their own obvious, but one of if not THE favourite trope I have is the Paladin (Good Guy) in a Grimdark world.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

But dont we have one? From CS1?

That's a flavor of demon knight, which is a related thing, but not, say, a Diablo IV religious zealot. (I haven't played the expansion class, but the NPCs are sure they're the good guys and are ... not.)

To each their own obvious, but one of if not THE favourite trope I have is the Paladin (Good Guy) in a Grimdark world.

I do think an anti-fiend/undead paragon would work well in Shadowdark, but they're not going to be much for jousting or running around on their horse with a lance.

 

[Mannahnin]

I feel like Kelsey's take is constrained a bit by not wanting to step on the Fighter's toes, of course. And wanting to generally fill the vibe of a classic AD&D Paladin without being broken, mechanically.

The Paladin's warhorse was always a thing in OD&D and AD&D. The mounted Knight in Shining Armor (with lance, ofc) is part of the trope.

The Holy Sword was always the thing you hoped for, and this gives a balanced version of it and actually GIVES it to you as opposed to making it a powerful far-off dream that the DM may never let you actually have. (And then regret if he ever does, because DAMN was a Holy Avenger nuts in the hands of a paladin).

Inspiring Presence gives you a unique and useful and balanced paladin's aura (a personal permanent Protection from Evil of course like in AD&D would be insane).

I do think you've got a point that the horse doesn't quite fit the normal Shadowdark vibe and is more suited to overland quests. But otherwise I think she did a good job of capturing the essential tropes of a D&D paladin without overshadowing the Fighter class.

 

[Scribe]

The Western Reaches, is going to have a lot of Hex travel, over a lot of land.

I can see the arguments, but the class works for me.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Really it combines both "Knight" (horse, lance) theme with the "Paladin" (Inspiring Presence, magic sword) theme.