Shadowdark Shadowdark Discussion Thread [+]

[Argyle King]

Similar to every other game that is not a war game - however you want, because this is outside the intented design scope. I could homebrew you a ships cannon that kills PCs in both SD and DnD 5e even if it doesnt make sense. Although I think a higher level DnD character SHOULD survive a direct hit by a cannon, but that is a different discussion. SD characters on the other hand don't scale as high as DnD characters, they do not become demigods at max level (which is only 10, not 20 + they don't get CON MOD added to their max hp on level up)

If you want good (naval) warfare systems, I think neither Shadowdark nor DnD 5e are the games for you.

Could be the case that they aren't the games for me.

There are rpgs that do handle things like that (and do so without needing to be war games).

Personally, I think it's more interesting to have breadth of play rather than continuously stacking of numbers. Aye, PCs are exceptional, but I find heroes leading armies more interesting than heroes soloing armies.

Sieging a castle, firing a ballista at a dragon, or the rhythmic beating of of drums to build up to ramming speed as the distance to an enemy ship closes may be outside the scope of a typical dungeon crawl, but I do not feel that those things should be outside of what is possible in a medieval-ish fantasy adventure story.

I had thought that the flatter power curve of Shadowdark might lend itself to trying to do those things better than contemporary D&D.

 

[Reynard]

Could be the case that they aren't the games for me.

There are rpgs that do handle things like that (and do so without needing to be war games).

Personally, I think it's more interesting to have breadth of play rather than continuously stacking of numbers. Aye, PCs are exceptional, but I find heroes leading armies more interesting than heroes soloing armies.

Sieging a castle, firing a ballista at a dragon, or the rhythmic beating of of drums to build up to ramming speed as the distance to an enemy ship closes may be outside the scope of a typical dungeon crawl, but I do not feel that those things should be outside of what is possible in a medieval-ish fantasy adventure story.

I had thought that the flatter power curve of Shadowdark might lend itself to trying to do those things better than contemporary D&D.

It may, but you are going to have to invent the rules or crib them from something else and revise them to meet Shadowdark's math.

In the vast sea of TTRPGs, big and small, you should be able to find one that meets your needs. But if you like tinkering, by all means create a "heroes in battle" rules layer for SD. I bet some other folks would be interested in the same.

 

[Xenolith234]

I’m sure you could graft on Pirate Borg’s ship rules for that, and the Hellmarch supplement for Shadowdark/OSR has wargaming rules as well as siege rules.

 

[darjr]

Edit: never mind. Not trying to be dismissive or anything just realized I’d rather just live and let live.

 

[Argyle King]

It may, but you are going to have to invent the rules or crib them from something else and revise them to meet Shadowdark's math.

In the vast sea of TTRPGs, big and small, you should be able to find one that meets your needs. But if you like tinkering, by all means create a "heroes in battle" rules layer for SD. I bet some other folks would be interested in the same.

Also, within that same general ballpark, my question was from the standpoint of trying to better gauge the mentality behind Shadowdark design.

Those examples were chosen because they are normal adventure scenes in fantasy novels and movies that ttrpgs may seek to emulate.

Even at the smaller 4-person dungeon crawl team level, understanding the baseline core mentality behind what Shadowdark says should or ought to happen given a situation or scene helps grant insight into the type of game I can expect and what that means for compatibility with stories I might want to tell.

To elaborate: I enjoy both GURPS and Dungeon Crawl Classics. I have played a lot of D&D from 3rd Edition to 5th Edition. I could adapt the same adventure to any of those systems, but playing the same adventure through each of them would result in different experiences.

I would like to better educate myself on what the Shadowdark experience is like, as well as what the storytelling and encounter design mentalities at the system are.

In the end, maybe it really is the case that Shadowdark isn't for me. Either way, I felt there was value in trying to keep an open mind and learn about the positives of the system rather than limiting myself to being stuck in the opinion that came from my initial attempt to play the game.

Is there anything in particular that you have added to your core Shadowdark set that has enhanced your experience? (A Scroll? A rule or concept that you imported from a different game? A particular third party supplement that you recommend?)

 

[Reynard]

I would like to better educate myself on what the Shadowdark experience is like, as well as what the storytelling and encounter design mentalities at the system are.

The best way to do.that is to play and/or run it.

 

[liteberer]

Todd Stashwick is talking with Kelsey Saturday at 8am in his coffee show.

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anyone figure out how to watch this retrospectively?

 

[Scribe]

I would like to better educate myself on what the Shadowdark experience is like, as well as what the storytelling and encounter design mentalities at the system are.

Read over the cursed scrolls, and play it. I dont see how there is any other way.

Contrast with Daggerheart. Daggerheart has a lot more uh guidance, on how its played both through recommendation and (likely) intent, but also mechanically with Hope/Fear.

Shadowdark has its core concepts (darkness, torchlight, character gen/leveling, treasure) but outside that? Its so expandable, and can just tackle adventures with the core book, that you can add or play it and your experience is not going to be mine or anyone elses.

If you try and play it like its 5e, that wont work. If you try and play it like 2e, out of the box, that also wont work. It also clearly is not 4e, Daggerheart, or Draw Steel, or anything like that.

Encounter design is OSR, storytelling, is emergent. You have to get in there and poke around to see how it works, but if you look at Kelsey's adventure design, even the mini ones, you can get an idea of what to expect I would argue.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Personally, I think it's more interesting to have breadth of play rather than continuously stacking of numbers. Aye, PCs are exceptional, but I find heroes leading armies more interesting than heroes soloing armies.

I don't think you'll find "heroes soloing armies" in Shadowdark. You never get to the godlike powers you find in some other games like D&D.

That said, there also aren't rules for "heroes leading armies". The GM needs to improvise that stuff. The same with...

Sieging a castle, firing a ballista at a dragon, or the rhythmic beating of of drums to build up to ramming speed as the distance to an enemy ship closes may be outside the scope of a typical dungeon crawl, but I do not feel that those things should be outside of what is possible in a medieval-ish fantasy adventure story.

The GM is just going to have to improvise resolution for these things; the are not "rules" for it in the rulebook.

What it comes down to, I think, is not whether it can support the flavor you describe but whether or not one's players trust the GM to improvise. If you play with the sorts of rules-lawyers who are going to push back whenever a judgment call isn't as advantageous as the players want, and they will argue about it, then you might want a game that has specific rules for all those things.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If you want good (naval) warfare systems, I think neither Shadowdark nor DnD 5e are the games for you.

Pirate Borg's excellent naval combat could be used with Shadowdark pretty easily and the publisher, Limithron, has a version of those rules available as a PDF for 5E.