Shadowdark looks so good!

[kenada]

Seems kind of unfair to compare this free playtest against completed games. How about we wait until the full thing comes out before we judge?

The Kickstarter is advertising that all rewards are already written and ready to send to the printers. If the quick start is not representative of what’s on offer, then it’s misleading backers. I don’t think that’s the case, so the comparison seems fair (and is appreciated).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Finally got a chance to take a look at the quick start. The art is great and the presentation is clean, and I'm glad it's doing well.

...that said, it seems pretty middle of the road in terms of games within the OSR. It reminds me the most of The Black Hack (unified resolution, 4 classes, streamlined presentation); in fact there seem to be many aspects that are directly inspired (things like movement ranges or explanation of ability tests). But looking at both it's clear that TBH is just more innovative in terms of mechanics (usage die, overloaded encounter tables, monster creation) and more evocative in its random tables (for treasures, traps, poisons, etc). By contrast the Shadowdark character abilities and magic items are a bit meh...lots of +1 or +2 to this or that.

Again, happy it's doing well, but if someone had $30-$50 and wanted to get into the OSR (in particular with a 'modernized' pick up and play ruleset) I'd recommend they start with any number of games that are between $0 and $20 on drivethru: cairn, knave, maze rats, the black hack, worlds without number, index card rpg, sharp swords and sinister spells, etc (some of those games perhaps ironically by people hyping up shadowdark on youtube).

I think you're misunderstanding the game. It's not meant to be the most innovative design or a classic OSR game. It's a game for 5E players to play OSR. The "lack of innovation" is because it's a greatly stripped down 5E, which 5E DMs and players can jump to more or less instantly.

Black Hack has a learning curve for everyone, as it's neither a retroclone nor a stripped down modern game. It has different goals -- it's coming at the game as a design challenge to do something interesting. Shadowdark just wants to be the OSR game for 5E vets. (It's also a good intro game for 5E, of course, as it's 5E without nearly as many choices or moving parts.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Personally, Kelsey not only designed a game that looks exactly how I always wanted D&D to look and feel, but also created a system that lets me play D&D in a unique way that's perfect for short, simple, creative dungeon crawls.

Yeah, I've played a number of OSR games over the years, but having played all of the older versions of D&D (other than OD&D) when they were new, I never find myself excited to go back to to-hit matrices and the like and always fantasized about "what if we just did this with the 5E engine, which I like much better," and am delighted that's what Kelsey has done.

It doesn't have to be a game for everyone. It is a game for me, though, which is all that matters to me.

The Kickstarter is advertising that all rewards are already written and ready to send to the printers. If the quick start is not representative of what’s on offer, then it’s misleading backers. I don’t think that’s the case, so the comparison seems fair (and is appreciated).

The quickstart is representative, but incomplete. The reviewers who have full versions of the game rave about the random tables, of which there are apparently a ton, and we haven't really seen those yet. If it allows game generation on the fly -- one of the things I love about Flatland Games' OSR games, although those use an AD&D engine -- that's a compelling part of the package.

I can prepare an adventure on the fly with Flatland's Grizzled Adventurers and me and my players can go from no characters, no adventure, to having created a group and played through a satisfying adventure in less than three hours, which is a very big deal for me at this stage of my life.

Fingers crossed I can do the same with Shadowdark. (Otherwise, I'll be using those same rules from Grizzled Adventurers in Shadowdark.)

 

[kenada]

I think you're misunderstanding the game. It's not meant to be the most innovative design or a classic OSR game. It's a game for 5E players to play OSR. The "lack of innovation" is because it's a greatly stripped down 5E, which 5E DMs and players can jump to more or less instantly.

It seems like you both agree about where it falls on the spectrum. Since this is (nominally at least) an OSR-ish space, should it be surprising that it was examined through that lens? However, if what’s important is that it’s for 5e players, I wonder if it might not benefit from additional exposure (also?) in the 5e forum here. I’m actually surprised it hasn’t gotten its own front page coverage.

The quickstart is representative, but incomplete. The reviewers who have full versions of the game rave about the random tables, of which there are apparently a ton, and we haven't really seen those yet. If it allows game generation on the fly -- one of the things I love about Flatland Games' OSR games, although those use an AD&D engine -- that's a compelling part of the package.

Sure, that’s another factor. Good tables can be very handy. (See above for the rest of my thoughts on this side conversation.)

 

[Malmuria]

I think you're misunderstanding the game. It's not meant to be the most innovative design or a classic OSR game. It's a game for 5E players to play OSR. The "lack of innovation" is because it's a greatly stripped down 5E, which 5E DMs and players can jump to more or less instantly.

Well great! Hopefully it will accomplish that goal! From a design perspective—and as someone who has introduced 5e players to various OSR games—I don’t see why I’d use this system in particular (from what I see in the QuickStart). Aside from some terminology like “DC” and the basic idea of d20 roll high, it doesn’t accommodate 5e players more so than a game like knave. 5 torches deep or Into the Unknown share more with 5e on that front.

Black Hack has a learning curve for everyone, as it's neither a retroclone nor a stripped down modern game.

Black Hack has a learning curve? It’s not a stripped down modern game? The rules are all of 20 pages. The only unintuitive thing is the way armor works.

It has different goals -- it's coming at the game as a design challenge to do something interesting. Shadowdark just wants to be the OSR game for 5E vets. (It's also a good intro game for 5E, of course, as it's 5E without nearly as many choices or moving parts.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The ENWorld audience, generally speaking, is kind of indifferent to anything not branded the current edition of Dungeons & Dragons. That weakened some during the 4E era, during the rise of Pathfinder and the OSR coming into its own, but I'm not sure if the powers that be find putting OSR games on the front page to be the best use of that real estate.

That said, I hope Kelsey has reached out to the writers here for an interview. I think this game is at least as interesting as many featured that way.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Aside from some terminology like “DC” and the basic idea of d20 roll high, it doesn’t accommodate 5e players more so than a game like knave. 5 torches deep or Into the Unknown share more with 5e on that front.

So, aside from ways that it's more accomodating, it's not more accomodating?

Black Hack has a learning curve? It’s not a stripped down modern game? The rules are all of 20 pages. The only unintuitive thing is the way armor works.

Yes, being less intuitive, which translates to a learning curve.

Everything in Shadowdark works the way it does in 5E, except that feats are out the window, there's no multiclassing and skills are implied through background, not chosen by players.

It's a simplified 5E.

 

[Arilyn]

I like having lots of OSR games out there because they are usually flexible enough that ideas from one can be transferred to another. The OSR has been producing really imaginative content/adventures in recent years that can easily fit into any OSR game. Shadow dark is another welcome addition. Kelsey makes awesome content.

 

[Malmuria]

So, aside from ways that it's more accomodating, it's not more accomodating?

Yes, being less intuitive, which translates to a learning curve.

Everything in Shadowdark works the way it does in 5E, except that feats are out the window, there's no multiclassing and skills are implied through background, not chosen by players.

It's a simplified 5E.

Well, I've never heard anyone claim that the black hack--a rules lite, minimalist game--has a learning curve, but you learn something new every day I guess!

re: being accommodating to 5e players
Here's the Shadowdark Fighter class from the quickstart. Super simple, based around improvements to core stats rather than special abilities--similar to a dozen other rules lite OSR games. Nothing about it suggests that it is particularly suitable for converting 5e players. It's on the DM to get those 5e players to be on board with the abstracted gold-for-xp leveling system, and the fact that when you level up you gain talents randomly (does 5e work that way? no).

By contrast, here is the fighter class from Into the Unknown. More complicated, but you can see very clearly how it is trying to speak to 5e players within an overall system that is simpler, more deadly and has relatively less, but still some, customization. It uses familiar terms like proficiency bonus, fighting style, etc, and does the work on the back end to make sure the game feels more gritty and less heroic than 5e.

Once again, congratulations to the author and I'm curious to see what the whole product looks like in terms of gm tools/random tables that are not in the quickstart. To me it looks like a totally fine game, and it's a good thing that the author's credibility among 5e players will lead more people to perhaps try rules lite systems.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Here's the Shadowdark Fighter class from the quickstart. Super simple, based around improvements to core stats rather than special abilities--similar to a dozen other rules lite OSR games. Nothing about it suggests that it is particularly suitable for converting 5e players.

It turns out that class is embedded in a whole document, in which the 5E innovations are more prominent. The baseline engine is the appeal.

Specifically, d20 roll high resolution system, advancing AC, advantage/disadvantage are all things 5E players will understand from the jump, and there's no additional weirdness being added like percentile skills or d6 being used on player-facing rolls or whatever. None of those things individually is new in the OSR space, but I don't know any that add that and then don't add more systems atop it. (Roll to cast spells and real time torches are extremely light systems that wouldn't seem strange as 5E optional rules, in contrast.)

In any case, who cares? If this isn't a game for you, great! Lots of games aren't for me, either. Nothing is accomplished by belaboring the "yes, but what about other OSR games" point.