Shadowdark looks so good!

Arilyn

Hero
I'm playing in a long running Shadowdark campaign. We've done lots of things besides dungeon delving. We have character arcs and an emergent long "story" based on our decisions. The GM is running it in a NSR fashion, so danger is telegraphed and careful, smart play is keeping the player character death count low.

Magic is a fickle friend. That's the point! Sometimes the spell fizzles before using it even once, other times it gets multiple castings.

Shadowdark also has a page with suggested modes to make the game even grittier or more pulp. Pick and choose the options for the flavour you're looking for.

And Arcane Library has added great options with the Cursed Scroll zines. There is also a vibrant community adding new options and ideas. I'm a huge fan of Shadowdark.
 

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I'm running it now: party of 4, F/MU/T/C. Not sure they playtested it well enough. Spellcasting is broken backwards where a caster can lose a spell before ever getting to use it. Very poor design.

This is the one aspect of Shadowdark I don't much like. I once had a game playing a level 1 wizard who immediately whiffed both his spells, and had to throw darts at -2 to hit for the rest of the time. It was not fun. The good news is that this is easily fixed by giving casters a luck token, or even using the Black Hack system where spells always succeed the first time, but subsequent rolls to cast them are made at disadvantage.

It's like a D&D clone BUT no one has infravision? Weird.

Nothing weird about that at all. It's one of the best features of Shadowdark: light matters. A lot. No more hand-waving it away, for any character, ever. It might be the single best idea in the game.

Finally there's nada for long-term campaigns outside of the very new-school method of fighting monsters until you hit level 20 or whatever. No land-ownership. No strongholds. No armies. No political intrigue. You're literally stuck in the dungeon FOREVER:cautious:

Actually, that's the point: there is no level 20, or anything close to it. Shadowdark fixes the issue of demi-god levels by simply doing away with them. That's as elegant solution as anything. Fifty years later, D&D still hasn't figured out what to do with high levels, as evidenced by the fact the staggering majority of 5e campaigns don't get past level 12.
 
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Jahydin

Hero
This is the one aspect of Shadowdark I don't much like. I once had a game playing a level 1 wizard who immediately whiffed both his spells, and had to throw darts at -2 to hit for the rest of the time. It was not fun. The good news is that this is easily fixed by giving casters a luck token, or even using the Black Hack system where spells always succeed the first time, but subsequent rolls to cast them are made at disadvantage.
Was Black Hack the originator of the "roll to cast" rule?

Actually, that's the point: there is no level 20, or anything close to it. Shadowdark fixes the issue of demi-god levels by simply doing away with them. That's as elegant solution as anything. Fifty years later, D&D still hasn't figured out what to do with high levels, as evidenced by the fact the staggering majority of campaigns don't get past level 12.
So very, very true!

One of the reasons I'm upset with C&C is they went from Lv 12 to 24 in the core rule set. :confused:
 


Jahydin

Hero
Dungeon Crawl Classics did it twelve years ago. If anyone did it even earlier than that, I'm not aware.
Oh right, I completely forgot.

Shadowdark gets lots of B/X and 5E clone comments, but I'm thinking a better way of describing it to people is the "0D&D version of DCC" maybe?
 


hoffrg86

Explorer

Jahydin

Hero
So now that the game is out, what's your consensus.. what does it do better than 5e or say an OSR game like OSE ?
56 pages.. so not sure if you answered... ;0
Hey!

Personally I love it. Despite owning dozens and dozens of RPG systems, this one in particular sees the most play at the moment.

This is the system I bring out when I just want to do a straight-up dungeon crawl, especially if there is new players that are interested. This is due to how quick rolling up characters is, how fast it is to teach the game, and how smooth it plays.

Off the top of my head...
What I like compared to OSE:
Grimdark art that's metal AF
Doesn't shy away from its dark tone like Dolmenwood has been doing
Unique rule-set rather than just being a clone
"Roll to hit" magic system that lets you keep spells
Thieves that have better success on skill checks (Advantage roll VS DC 12)
Turn order outside combat and 1 hour torch timer
Chance to stabilize after hitting 0 HP

What I like compared to 5E:
Not WotC
No HP bloat
No high level nonsense
No superhero characters
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Spellcasting is broken backwards where a caster can lose a spell before ever getting to use it. Very poor design.

Nobody has to like this mechanic, but "very poor design" is opinion, not fact. Having played a lot of Shadowdark, the people I play with have found the mechanic to be a ton of fun. If you do the arithmetic you'll see that Shadowdark Wizards...assuming they don't have terrible Int...on average get a lot more spells per day than D&D Wizards. And, yes, it's on average so they will have both terrible days and awesome days.

And even when they run out of spells, Shadowdark mechanics mean that Wizards can contribute meaningfully with dagger or staff.

It's like a D&D clone BUT no one has infravision? Weird.

'Clone' is not accurate here. 'Derived' is better.

But regardless, the impact of nearly ubiquitous infravision has been a source of complaints for years and years. You may not share the complaint, but if somebody is going to write a variant to D&D, targeting the features that a lot of people hate makes a lot of sense. Far from weird.


Also the way the books are formatted is crazy because there's GM information in the players' book & player info in the GM book :ROFLMAO:

Umm....there's only one book. So I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Plus how do you capture an "old-school feel" with a game that has 5e-like Death saves AND Long rests? That isn't old-school at all . Finally there's nada for long-term campaigns outside of the very new-school method of fighting monsters until you hit level 20 or whatever. No land-ownership. No strongholds. No armies. No political intrigue. You're literally stuck in the dungeon FOREVER:cautious:

This is getting stranger and stranger. Long rests? Level 20? Are you sure you are talking about Shadowdark?

Overall I put Shadowdark in the same class as RISUS or Maze Rats: Beer & Pretzels rpgs that play more like a board game. All it really did was reaffirm how complete and expansive the D&D Rules Cyclopedia is.

Ok, I find that one of the strangest comment of all. We must have a very different view of what "like a board game" means. In my mind, a board game is one that uses rules to rigidly define what is and isn't permissible. In Monopoly, you can't improvise and try to convert your hotels to condos. That's simply not in the rules.

One of the most defining characteristics of RPGs, on the other hand, is that they free the player from those constraints. Players are encouraged to think of creative solutions to problems that aren't in the rules and weren't considered by the GM.

Now, everybody is free to play any RPG however they want. But in my experience the more mechanical options that get packed on the character sheet, and the more adjudication rules given to the GM, the more likely that the game gets played within the confines of those rules, and the less likely players are to improvise.

One of the things I have been loving about Shadowdark is that players spend less time looking at their character sheets, hoping to find some button to press to solve the problem, and more time inventing completely unexpected solutions to those problems. And as a GM I spend less time worrying about specific rules to adjudicate their ideas, and more time leaning into the Rule of Cool. It's a ton of fun, and really brings me back to how we played in junior high school 45 years ago.

So, yeah....I really don't understand the 'board game' comment.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
This is the one aspect of Shadowdark I don't much like. I once had a game playing a level 1 wizard who immediately whiffed both his spells, and had to throw darts at -2 to hit for the rest of the time. It was not fun.

There's nothing more old-school than playing a level 1 Wizard and feeling worthless!

I jest.

Yeah, I've also seen some players be disappointed when their low level Wizard gets unlucky and gets no spells off for the day.

Then again, I've seen the exact same thing happen in D&D when the monsters make all their saves.

But what I've also seen in Shadowdark, but can't happen in D&D, is when the opposite happens and the Wizard gets lucky and just bangs out spell after spell after spell and never seems to fail. Then those players are grinning big time.

The spell mechanic in Shadowdark may seriously be my favorite part of the whole game.

(P.S. save the luck tokens for the nat 1's.)
 

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