Shaman questions

[brehobit]

Hi all,
I have a handful of questions about shamans:

• The spirit's shield power (and spirit's fangs) say the trigger is: "An enemy leaves a square adjacent to your spirit companion without shifting." Does that include forced movement? Teleportation?
• Can a spirit companion be flanked or otherwise grant combat advantage?
• A conjuration can float in the air. Can a spirit companion fly? If not, what happens, if say, the ground below the SC were to go away (trap door, collapsing bridge etc.)? Can it move down/sideways?
• With a protector spirit companion, do both the target of your healing spirit and the ally who is also healed gain a bonus in healing equal to your Con?

Thoughts:

• If forced movement triggers spirit's shield, that's going to be very powerful. But at the same time I don't see any errata and the wording seems clear.
• Am I missing something or does a protector spirit shaman basically have to have a STR of 13 for chain? Without that their AC seems to be horrible.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It works regardless of how the enemy leaves the square, unless they shift. Its better than most OAs in that respect.

Spirit Companions are not creatures, thus not allies, and thus they can't flank.

According to WotC a conjuration can 'float' and doesn't need to be supported by a surface, but cannot fly. Given that this is essentially a totally nonsensical situation you're free to decide for yourself. Note that for instance the eagle shaman (in Primal Power) clearly is intended to have a flying SC, yet it has no special class feature or power to implement that. Basically its up to your DM to decide how it works on a case by case basis as the rules are incoherent.

I don't think the additional ally gains the CON bonus hit points since they aren't the target of the effect. In other words you didn't heal them, they simply benefited from a spirit boon.

 

[brehobit]

Of course I asked first and did a web search 2nd. The general consensus is that forced movement can't provoke opportunity actions, and neither can teleportation. Sad, but reasonable. Also really poorly written rules. Who'd think to read the definition of forced movement when resolving this power? Bah I say.

 

[brehobit]

I don't think the additional ally gains the CON bonus hit points since they aren't the target of the effect. In other words you didn't heal them, they simply benefited from a spirit boon.

Hummm, that was my initial thought too, but the wording is:

Any ally adjacent to your spirit companion regains additional hit points equal to your Constitution modifier when he or she uses second wind or when you use a healing power on him or her.

They may not be the target, but the power is being used on him. I think you might be right, but I'd argue it is a best unclear.

 

[DracoSuave]

It works regardless of how the enemy leaves the square, unless they shift. Its better than most OAs in that respect.

No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.

The answer here is a -definitive- no, it does not trigger off of forced movement.

Spirit Companions are not creatures, thus not allies, and thus they can't flank.

Moreover, hey cannot -be- flanked because you cannot have combat advantage against a Spirit Companion. Combat advantage against the shaman also does not work.

According to WotC a conjuration can 'float' and doesn't need to be supported by a surface, but cannot fly. Given that this is essentially a totally nonsensical situation you're free to decide for yourself. Note that for instance the eagle shaman (in Primal Power) clearly is intended to have a flying SC, yet it has no special class feature or power to implement that. Basically its up to your DM to decide how it works on a case by case basis as the rules are incoherent.

Spirit companions can be moved in any direction in three dimensional space. They do not fly, that's something creatures do. It's simply a spell effect and has no more substance than a twinkling aura of mojo. Cause that's all it really is.

I don't think the additional ally gains the CON bonus hit points since they aren't the target of the effect. In other words you didn't heal them, they simply benefited from a spirit boon.

The spirit boon does not require you target the player, only that a power be used on them. Using a power on someone merely requires that power effects them. The 'you must target a thing for an effect to be used on it' is an artifact of some other game that is non-roleplaying. Be wary of using Magic: The Gathering rules thinking on D&D rules... it doesn't work.

Did you choose to effect that player with your power? Yes? Then you used the power on them. The wording doesn't say 'target' for a reason: very few healing powers in the game actually target the person healed. Most target an enemy, then heal your friends.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.

The answer here is a -definitive- no, it does not trigger off of forced movement.

Its a specific trigger condition, not just a general Opportunity Attack trigger. Personally I and I think most DMs don't allow this kind of trigger to work on forced movement, but it is not at all "definitive".

Spirit companions can be moved in any direction in three dimensional space. They do not fly, that's something creatures do. It's simply a spell effect and has no more substance than a twinkling aura of mojo. Cause that's all it really is.

WotC has gone back and forth on this. The rule has been for quite a while (check the PHB2 FAQ I believe) that conjurations can't move vertically. Again its one of those things where I run it as you suggest, but RAW is rather ambiguous. Its not even clear you can target a conjuration onto a square that isn't at 'ground level'. A literal reading of the rules would say they can't go up a stairs or a ramp even.

The spirit boon does not require you target the player, only that a power be used on them. Using a power on someone merely requires that power effects them. The 'you must target a thing for an effect to be used on it' is an artifact of some other game that is non-roleplaying. Be wary of using Magic: The Gathering rules thinking on D&D rules... it doesn't work.

Did you choose to effect that player with your power? Yes? Then you used the power on them. The wording doesn't say 'target' for a reason: very few healing powers in the game actually target the person healed. Most target an enemy, then heal your friends.

I'm not going by any kind of M:tG based rule DS. lol. Using a power on something IS a function of targeting. This particular point has been argued long and short but there is no other adequate definition. Furthermore the POWER didn't affect the other character, the power triggered a CLASS FEATURE which benefited the other character.

Obviously the rules have various interpretations. The truth is the right interpretation is the one that makes sense in a given situation or makes the game fun for the players and DM. 4e's rules are more defined than previous editions, but ultimately they're never going to be able to cover everything.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Its a specific trigger condition, not just a general Opportunity Attack trigger. Personally I and I think most DMs don't allow this kind of trigger to work on forced movement, but it is not at all "definitive".

That's not how specific vs. general works. The general rule is that Forced movement doesn't trigger opportunity actions or attacks. The trigger would need to specifically call out forced movement for it to trigger. Also consider the fact that all OA's have triggers so your reasoning makes no sense. If it worked the way you say then there would be no reason at all to have the rule that forced movement doesn't trigger opportunity actions.

Second, the reason that shifting is mentioned as an exclusion to the trigger is because normally shifting would trigger an opportunity action. Shifting only prevents opportunity attacks from triggering.

 

[Aulirophile]

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[DracoSuave]

Its a specific trigger condition, not just a general Opportunity Attack trigger. Personally I and I think most DMs don't allow this kind of trigger to work on forced movement, but it is not at all "definitive".

Irrelevant. It's not an Opportunity Attack. It's an opportunity action, and does not explicitly contradict the rules on forced movement. No contradiction means that there is no overruling of the general rule. In other words, specific vs general means, if there IS no specific case, you apply the general rule.

That's what the rule exists for.

WotC has gone back and forth on this. The rule has been for quite a while (check the PHB2 FAQ I believe) that conjurations can't move vertically. Again its one of those things where I run it as you suggest, but RAW is rather ambiguous. Its not even clear you can target a conjuration onto a square that isn't at 'ground level'. A literal reading of the rules would say they can't go up a stairs or a ramp even.

There exists no rules text saying you cannot move a moveable conjuration vertically. Therefore a literally reading of the rules implying that does not exist.

I'm not going by any kind of M:tG based rule DS. lol. Using a power on something IS a function of targeting.

A implies B, does not mean B implies A.

Using a target on something IS using a power on that thing. Using a power on that thing is not necessarily targetting that thing.

Also, players are creatures, but that does not mean creatures are players.

This particular point has been argued long and short but there is no other adequate definition. Furthermore the POWER didn't affect the other character, the power triggered a CLASS FEATURE which benefited the other character.

Looking back at the original question:

With a protector spirit companion, do both the target of your healing spirit and the ally who is also healed gain a bonus in healing equal to your Con?

Calling on the game element in question:

-----------------------

Healing Spirit Shaman Feature
Encounter (Special) - Healing, Primal
Minor Action - Close burst 5
Target: You or one ally in burst
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge. If the target does so, one ally adjacent to your spirit companion, other than the target, regains 1d6 hit points.
Level 6: 2d6 hit points.
Level 11: 3d6 hit points.
Level 16: 4d6 hit points.
Level 21: 5d6 hit points.
Level 26: 6d6 hit points.
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round. At 16th level, you can use this power three times per encounter, but only once per round.

------------------------

So the question I return to you is, exactly what are you talking about? The healing in question from Healing Spirit is -clearly- in the EFFECT line of the Healing Spirit power. So, this is healing done by a shaman power on a creature.

That creature is adjacent to your spirit companion.

Yes you get to use the spirit's boon on that creature.

Are you -certain- you understood the original question?

Obviously the rules have various interpretations. The truth is the right interpretation is the one that makes sense in a given situation or makes the game fun for the players and DM. 4e's rules are more defined than previous editions, but ultimately they're never going to be able to cover everything.

It helps, however, if you actually read the pertinent text, and make a ruling based on what is actually being asked.

The above may be true, but when someone asks a rules question, please make sure you know what you're actually talking about. They're not looking for the 'do what you want' answer most of the time, they're looking for what the rules actually say. In this case, the rules are actually pretty damn clear. Knowing the rules, he can then... do what he wants.


PS: I even checked the errata to make sure the Healing Lore change didn't end up applying to the Spirit Boon of protecting shamans. Their spirit boon did not get altered.