Shane Hensley comments on the RPG industry

[Wulf Ratbane]

Why is Spycraft acceptably different from d20 while SAS isn't? Seriously?

Take a close look at the front cover of Spycraft.

Subtle, but relevant.

You'll also note that Spycraft has all of the definitive d20 elements.

I will concede your point that gamers including myself give a certain amount of "latitude on attitude." Spycraft is a great system, built from the ground up around d20 for all the right reasons. I don't get the impression that you embrace d20 for those reasons, nor that you ever will.


Wulf

 

[Ssendam]

tangent alert!

Didn't that idea fade away after all of the online grocery stores that would have fulfilled these orders dot.tanked?

LOL, caught me! (but I call it artistic licence).

The point is still the same though, computers are now commonplace, and you aren't a geek if you have/own/use one.

 

[whisper_jeff]

Take a close look at the front cover of Spycraft.

Subtle, but relevant.

You'll also note that Spycraft has all of the definitive d20 elements.

I will concede your point that gamers including myself give a certain amount of "latitude on attitude." Spycraft is a great system, built from the ground up around d20 for all the right reasons. I don't get the impression that you embrace d20 for those reasons, nor that you ever will.

First, as for the Spycraft cover, I think you're being too subtle - what are you talking about? I have a guess (the lack of a d20 logo on the _front_ cover), but I'm going to ask rather than assume.

Second, as for me not embracing d20 - you don't know me from a hole in the ground so how can you make that judgement? Seriously, what has given you that impression because it is, in my opinion, patently false. When I work on a d20 product, I am attempting to make the best product possible, as I do with _any_ product I work on. You may not like it, and that is your right, but don't ever doubt my desire to make the best product possible. Anyone who questions that doesn't know me at all.

 

[Bartholomew Fair]

Not true; it is not that people are not willing to separate D&D with d20. The problem is that D&D is the defining game for what d20 is. Folks do not expect you to deliver D&D in Tights, but they do expect you to remain consistent with the character creation, character advancement, and basic task resolution defined in the PHB.

Um, please speak for yourself Wulf. Some of us like SAS d20 and use it alongside our other d20 System games (D&D, Star Wars, CoC, etc.) with no trouble at all. Not all of us get our knickers in a twist just because there are some small differences between the respective games. HP vs. VP/WP anyone?

 

[Luddite]

tangent alert!

Didn't that idea fade away after all of the online grocery stores that would have fulfilled these orders dot.tanked?

Yes and no. The On-Line only grocery stores have faded away. But in my area, many of the chain brick and morter grocery stores are now offering on-line ordering and delivery service.

Computers are becoming more an more apart of the cosummer's life. Not only do all my friends and peers have computers, but so do all their mothers. 8*)

-Luddite

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

First, as for the Spycraft cover, I think you're being too subtle - what are you talking about? I have a guess (the lack of a d20 logo on the _front_ cover), but I'm going to ask rather than assume.

Correct. Spycraft uses the d20 logo exactly once, on the lower back cover, in the minimum possible size allowed by the license.

I think it is worthwhile to question why they chose that position.

Second, as for me not embracing d20 - you don't know me from a hole in the ground so how can you make that judgement? Seriously, what has given you that impression because it is, in my opinion, patently false.

My opinion is based solely on your posts here in the public forums of ENworld. This seems a reasonable place to form an opinion of your position on d20. I have not formed an opinion of you personally (except that you're occasionally snarky).

You may not like it, and that is your right, but don't ever doubt my desire to make the best product possible. Anyone who questions that doesn't know me at all.

I don't question your ability as a fellow designer. By all accounts, BESM and Tri-Stat is a fantastic system. However, I continually question your inability to understand the mind of the d20 gamer.

Perhaps it is too subtle or intangible to explain, but some companies and some designers "get it" and some don't. By your own admission you don't get it.

Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Jeff, in retrospect I'd like to apologize.

I don't think that whatever shortcomings there may be (in my opinion) in SAS d20 consitutes any evidence that you haven't embraced d20.

I recall my early opinion being formed by your contention that the essence of d20 was "roll a d20, compare it to a DC." (I use quotes, but I paraphrase).

While I think it's clear you're missing a certain je ne sais quoi about d20, it's unfair to characterize you as insincere.

Clearly, by your posts here, you are sincere in your attempts to come to grips with it.

I apologize for insinuating otherwise.


Wulf

 

[whisper_jeff]

Correct. Spycraft uses the d20 logo exactly once, on the lower back cover, in the minimum possible size allowed by the license.

I think it is worthwhile to question why they chose that position.

I believe the answer is very simply "because that is their standard practice." Looking at a couple of their other d20 products that I have available, they all have the logo very small and often just on the back cover. Since they are known as a d20 company, they don't have to advertise the fact quite as much. As a new company to d20, GOO has to make it a little more obvious. I don't think there was any other reason for their choice than "standard operating procedure."

Had they wanted to "play down" (as you suggest) any connection to d20, they could have done away with the logo entirely and gone OGL. There is no requirement to use the logo - in fact, using the logo has restrictions attached.

Also, are you implying that, had I elected to place the d20 logo on SAS in as small a size as possible, just on the back cover, the design decisions I made would have been acceptable?

The remainder of my comments related to your post have been cut because, really, there's just no point. You think I don't "get" d20 and I feel you don't "get" SAS d20.

 

[EarthsShadow]

Ooo Ooo...

I have something to say on all these wonderful and colorful topics...

To Cergorach: If you want help in working on a good cyberpunk/Shadowrun d20 conversion, I have some ideas I could throw at you. I would buy a SR d20 game in a heartbeat, and I love the original system also, but I know that most d20 players are not open minded enough to try different systems. Nothing personal.

To the SAS d20 argument: To all involved, this argument is mute and pointless. Each of you are trying to convince the other that you are right and the other side is wrong. Both of you are right, get over it, and move on. There are some people that have a specific viewpoint on what 'd20' is, which includes classes, level up, xp, bab, vancian magic, feats, things like this...and then there is the other side, that views 'd20' as 'just roll a d20 and add in modifiers to check against a DC.' Both sides are right, neither is wrong.

To Jeff of GOO: On a personal note, SAS d20 is the only superhero game I will play for d20 BECAUSE of the variations and changes you did make to the system, and KEEPING it d20 at the same time. It's an awesome game, and keep up the work. I will purchase d20 BESM and d20 Mecha next year also.

As for the roleplaying industry, the way I see it, the d20 revolution is slowing down. There are more quality products coming out now over a longer period of time and not as many rushed products like there was in the first year.

As for what makes a d20 game a d20 game, I think it is summed up as follows: You roll a d20, add in your modifiers, and compare it to a Difficulty Number/Target Number. You have the Six basic abilities, which I think there should be a couple more, but that's just a personal bias against the system. You have skills with skill ranks, you have classes that level up (and personally I don't even think classes themselves are REQUIRED per se, but most feel that they are required because of the fact that we are just used to them. Simple and to the point. People don't like change to much, which is unfortunate), you have experience points, and you have hit points/vitality points/wound points that increase with levels. I can understand why someone would say that Feats are a necessity in a d20 game, but if Attributes take the place of Feats and do the same thing, then that's cool with me.

And to all the other publishers out there, make some more good products for us to purchase. We appreciate it.

 

[Tsyr]

Correct. Spycraft uses the d20 logo exactly once, on the lower back cover, in the minimum possible size allowed by the license.

I think it is worthwhile to question why they chose that position.

I'll side with Jeff here (Plus, I'm a GOO-numbed zombie-worshiper, but that's beside the point)... you can check this for yourself. It's just how they do it. Same thing for Rokugan... lower corner, very tiny. And Rokugan is 100% compatible.

Dungeons has it in the same spot, though a touch bigger. The other "word" books have it twice, but still the very tiny size.

Don't have any of my "XXXX of Rokugan" books on hand to check with those, though.

I don't think there is any subtle meaning there, sorry.