Shane Hensley comments on the RPG industry

[ColonelHardisson]

I'd love to see a mega-adventure with props and everything. Not just paper hand-outs, either. I mean actual props. Chaosium once polled people if they'd buy a $100+ adventure if it included physical, prop "artifacts" - you know, small idols, elder signs, etc. This was many years ago, and I think what actually resulted was the "Orient Express" boxed adventure that eventually came out.

 

[Synicism]

First off, I'm a sucker for class books, so I have them all. And I've been pleasently surprised to find out how very little overlap there is. I've found that I can use all three fighter classbooks for instance with the same character. Each book while focusing on a fighter, does take a fighter in a different direction. So, I'm for overlap of topics since they are being well done and work together.

Well, they're not ALL well done.

I'm sure crunch sells an awful lot of books, but geez... how many do you possibly need?

I have no idea how many feat-chains, prestige-classes, and other random bits of crunch I have to represent the different ways a character can make another character die. In all honestly, I've rarely every used more than a tiny fraction of them, mainly because there isn't enough room on the sheets, nor do I have time to go through and make sure something doesn't suck.

Just an observation based on an actual gaming experience that came from using the same game world (Kalamar) with two different systems (GURPS and D&D3). We ran the entire GURPS game on four books: GURPS Basic, Compendium I, Magic, and Martial Arts, plus the Kalamar sourcebook.

The D&D version had the PhB, DmG, MM, five Splatbooks, two FFG white books, random selections from the FRCS, Magic of Faerun, and Oriental Adventures, plus selections from the Manual of the Planes, Freeport: City of Adventure, AND the Kalamar Player's Guide.

Is it just me, or does d20 create a hoarding instinct to go out and get every last thing out there so that we can have a zillion different options to spice up the vanilla?

How many prestige classes can we possibly need?

 

[Crothian]

Re: I'm concerned about d20

I think in some ways the d20 system is a step backwards in game design. For years designers had been moving away from strict class based character design. Deadlands, L5R, GURPs, and White Wolf all included character generation rules that gave players a lot of options right out of the box. In some ways D&D character creation seems to be more about what you can't do then what you can do and I've heard a lot of complains among players and DMs about it. I know some of you might say "The rules don't really matter it is how you play." The G in RPG stands for game so I think the rules are fairly important.

The rules are very important. They are the foundation, and they are no so interchangible as one might think. Rules make certain assumptions along the base line, so switch rules sets does change the game in some way. However, I think we will see classless d20 at some point. I and other people have created homebrew systems, so I know it can work. The skills point system and the feat system are already in place, and that greatly helps a classless system. Also, CoC d20 is classless. A level less system is more difficult, but we already see steps taking us towards that. There are products that allow one to spend experince points to gain abilities. That idea can be expanded upon until all the abilities gained with levels are bought with experience.

 

[Crothian]

Is it just me, or does d20 create a hoarding instinct to go out and get every last thing out there so that we can have a zillion different options to spice up the vanilla?

How many prestige classes can we possibly need?

It's not need, it's want. There are people who play D&D with just the core rules, I know more then a few.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Re: Re: I'm concerned about d20

*snip* A level less system is more difficult, but we already see steps taking us towards that. There are products that allow one to spend experince points to gain abilities. That idea can be expanded upon until all the abilities gained with levels are bought with experience.

I like the Earthdawn paradigm where you spend experience to gain the things that let you know you've gone up a level. Then new options open up for you to spend more experience on.

 

[satori01]

While it seems this topic has been turned into a personal discussion by the "usual suspects"(sorry just saw Casablanca had to use it) I have a couple of questions about aspects of RPG business aspects from those in the know?

1) What are the Gross Maragins for retailers when it comes to RPG Products. I'm sure this varies per Producer but what is a general precentage? On the same thread what is the general Gross Maragin for books in general, and does this vary from RPG products?

2) Do the bulk of RPG sales come from small independents or from the major book chains,(Barnes and Nobles/ Borders).

3) If the bulk of sales comes from the large book chains:

3a) How much autonomy do the stores have in ordering?
Do the stores place their orders directly with the producing companies? Is it through Distributors? Do these large companies place their orders in bulk and then ship requested quantities out to individual stores,(ie central warehousing and automated Purchase Order creation )?

3B) How strict is inventory/sales ratio and OBO calculations?
My general observation is pretty strict as I have seen many Major chain bookstores with old,(sometimes even 1e items) on the shelves (without discount clearance often times) well past the time one can expect to sell it.

4) Chris refrenced how novelty plays a large factor in the 'saleability" of a product, in a hobby industry like RPG do stores factor more for novelty than sales trend. Are sales trend models for RPGs a steep spike,(initial large sales boost followed by quick decline)?

 

[Duncan Haldane]

I'd love to see a mega-adventure with props and everything. Not just paper hand-outs, either. I mean actual props. Chaosium once polled people if they'd buy a $100+ adventure if it included physical, prop "artifacts" - you know, small idols, elder signs, etc. This was many years ago, and I think what actually resulted was the "Orient Express" boxed adventure that eventually came out.

I don't know about Orient Express, but I do remember the James Bond modules from the early 80s. They were great. They had handouts for the players that included "photos" of the bad guys, that sort of thing.

I would love to see a module that came with 1" grids of locations, so I could just lay them on the table, and the counters for such encounters.

Duncan

 

[Umbran]

I'm not sure about this. A store only has so much shelf space, and they gotta get stuff from distributors. So there's a limit to what they can stock.

Actually, I expect there's more to it than that. Not only is there a limit to what they can stock, there's limits on what they will try to stock.

It seems to me that d20Dwarf's position has as a base assumption the idea that retailers and the buying public are well-educated and aware. I expect that's a bit naive.

The "trickle down" effect is limited by knowledge. If the guy ordering for the bookstore doesn't know much, his ordering practices wil be affected. And the buyers won't buy it if it isn't on the shelf. The buyer doesn't seek out games or products he's never heard of...

Godlike may be a good example. It looks like a great game. But if I didn't come here, I'd have never heard of it. I've only ever seen copies of the core rulebook for the game for sale, and neither was in a "mass market" bookstore. The fact that there's more money being spent on d20 stuff isn't going to help a game like Godlike if nobody ever hears about it...

We here at EN World are spoiled by the amount of information we recieve. We occasionally forget that we are a few thousand people out of millions of gamers. Our knowledge of what exists is far beyond the norm.

 

[Piratecat]

This thread is superb. I'm going to take the rare step of deleting the bickering, since you guys worked it out and it's off topic.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

sorry just saw Casablanca had to use it)

i'd never blame you for that!

Captain Louis Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

Croupier: Your winnings, sir.


i can't speak about the industry from an insider's or store owner's point of view, i'm just a consumer.

Thorin & ColonelHardisson - a $100 mod/mega-mod/campaign is actually something i'd consider buying, as long as it was 'all inclusive'. (as in - you'd need nothing else but the core books to run.) oh, and i'm also a sucker for props .

(an aside -- that's why i love the (original) Deadlands game. it's a game with built in props, you have to love that!)

Duncan - i still have a bunch of those James Bond mods!

the only other things i may consider buying are books detailing a new setting, but they would really have to capture my imagination. so far, none have.

(aside 2 -- as mentioned earlier in the thread, the d20 Deadlands was a cop-out. i wonder if Hensley was as 'concerned' about Magic and the other CCGs before Doomtown (deadlands CCG) was released? he mentions WizKids alot in that interview...)