Shane Hensley comments on the RPG industry

Re: Ryan Dancey on PEG

Thorin Stoutfoot said:
As far as I'm concerned, good riddance to PEG from the d20 market. They weren't enthusiastic about d20, and it's better that they work on something that they are enthusiastic about. The same goes for the folks who did SAS d20.

I'm glad too, but not for that reason. I was fearful the original Deadlands system would evaporate if Deadlands d20 succeeded. Actually that was my fear about alot of the niche games that I like. They'd put out a d20 version, and it would sell so well that in the end they'd give up the original game and just make d20 supplements.
 

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rounser said:
It would be interesting to see Ryan Dancey comment, as to whether d20's impact is going pretty much as he planned, or with a twist or two.

I think that it is very important to differentiate between "d20 products" and "d20 publishers".

Let's imagine that there were 5 publishers selling 10 products each in August of 2001. And lets imagine that there were 20 publishers selling 5 products each in August of 2002.

An individual publisher might say "sales for d20 products are down compared to last year" or "the d20 glut is hurting sales". But from the perspective of the d20 market, you would have to say "d20 sales are up by 100% over last year!"

There are publishers who are making a lot more money on d20 products than most publishers of non-d20 products generated for years prior to the release of the OGL and the d20STL. Some of those publishers are "new", while some have businesses that straddle or significantly predate the OGL. And some of the products produced by the new guys are incredible, and some of the products produced by the preexisting guys are horrible. (And vice-versa). There are big companies who are doing extraordinarily well with d20, and small companies who are doing extraordinarily well with d20. (And vice versa).

On the other hand, with a couple of exceptions, most non-d20 publishers are finding it hard to avoid doing d20 products, and many publishers who are doing both d20 and non-d20 products are struggling with finding a balance that makes them comfortable.

The current market is the market that I believed we would grow into in 3-5 years from the release of the OGL, with odds on the 5 year window. That we have reached this point earlier than I expected I attribute to two things: 1 - a cadre of experienced publishers who took big chances very early on, and were extremely well rewarded for doing so, and 2 - the ability of the internet to educate consumers faster than I dreamed possible about the fact that they should be setting the development agenda, not the publishers.

I'm often asked how to make a successful d20 product. My answer is "add as much value to the player's experience as possible". There are a lot of publishers out there who think that consumers still evaluate their products based on how cool their worlds are, or how interesting their art is, or how "fringe" their subject matter is. None of that is true (or has ever been true). Customers value products based on how likely they are to use those products in a game, and when used in a game, how much entertainment value they add to the pre-existing material the customer already has. The difference in success between the publishers who follow a customer-centric focus and those who follow an alternate path is increasingly obvious in terms of unit volumes and topline revenue.

I think that in the next year or so, we will see a clear break between publishers (d20 or not) who bring products to market that maximize player value and those who do not. And I expect that many of those who do not will blame a "glut", or "a bad system", or other forces in the marketplace for their failures vs. the competition.

There are more active RPG players than there have been in more than a decade. The size of the RPG market in terms of raw dollars has doubled since 1999. There are more companies who are able to self-sustain RPG publishing businesses including paying living wage salaries and earning profits for ownership than at any time in my experience. Retailers are spending more money on RPG products and are treating RPG products as more central to their success or failure than at any time since the mid '90s. This is a fantastic time to be an RPG publisher, but the bar in terms of design quality, customer focus, and utility has been raised higher than it has ever been, meaning that the successful products usually represent a level of effort and attention to detail which dwarfs the levels exerted in much of the work done in previous years. The companies who adpat to these changes will be successful and those who don't won't.

I don't think that any structural force (WizKids, Yu-Gi-Oh, the recession, etc.) is having any positive or negative effect on the RPG market segment. The ups and downs in the RPG segment caused by publisher choices and customer reaction to those choices far outweighs any impact those external forces might have had. And I see nothing likely to change that for the foreseeable future.

Ryan
 

very interesting read :)

hopefully, the following will have relevance:

what about computer role-playing games, such as Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights or even non-d20 games such as the Final Fantasy franchise?

do you think the success of these games will have an impact on how well the paper-and-pencil RPG industry will do? from my own experience, i have met many people who have never even heard of Dungeons and Dragons, but love playing Baldur's Gate or games like Final Fantasy.

perhaps the success of computer role-playing games will have a positive effect on the role-playing industry?
 

demon_jr said:
very interesting read :)

hopefully, the following will have relevance:

what about computer role-playing games, such as Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights or even non-d20 games such as the Final Fantasy franchise?

do you think the success of these games will have an impact on how well the paper-and-pencil RPG industry will do? from my own experience, i have met many people who have never even heard of Dungeons and Dragons, but love playing Baldur's Gate or games like Final Fantasy.

perhaps the success of computer role-playing games will have a positive effect on the role-playing industry?

Strangely, CRPGs and "Pen and Paper" RPGs really don't appear to alter each other's sales. While some people do play both, a vast majority of computer gamers/console gamers do not bother with DnD. Could the millions of sales of the Baldur's Gate CRPG have driven a few sales of DnD material? Probably, but not enough to really raise eyebrows.

Now EQ might be slightly different. I am sure that some EverQuest addicts will go out and buy the books. I don't know that it will create "new" gamers, but it should have some nice sales for SSS/WW.

This will seem incredibly bizarre to people on these boards. The vast majority of gamers do not use the internet to look for reviews, gaming supplements, etc. This doesn't mean they don't have computers, it just means they don't use them for their gaming.

I personally think the d20 system and the avenues it has opened up for smaller publishers is fantastic.

Patrick Lawinger
 

Ok, just a few observations on what I perceive to be a great thread. Firstly, I am not a writer or involved in the industry, just a person who has played RPG's since the late 70's. Enthusiastically. Secondly, I am right there with the people who said "I was sticking to 1E when 2E came out."

The one thing that I have noticed about the D20 system is that it has opened up the minds of my gaming group, which started in college and is now 14 or so years together, to trying other genres. Before it was always ADnD. Nothing else. There could be no other games. There were no other styles. Now we rotate between SW D20, CoC D20 and 3E DnD. Plus Spycraft may be something that we try as well. I think the single reason is the mechanics and not having to learn a system.

I myself also play a Sci-Fi Hero System game which I love. Switching between the systems is not a problem for me.

Lastly, I will agree that there are tons of D20 Products that suck. My local gaming store can't give half of it away. However, the stuff that is good, is really good and the fact that it can be used in any of the games, is really beneficial.

Peace, and those of you in the industry, keep up the good work.
 

Originally posted by Synicism
Well... I wonder. there are those designers who have suffered because of d20, especially those who work primarily in other systems. Guys like Steven Long, Shane Hensley, and Steve Jackson come to mind, although even SJG is doing d20 stuff in limited numbers, with their Munchkin stuff. There *are* a lot of real good games out there (Little Fears, Godlike, Ironclaw, to name a few) that just don't get the exposure they might otherwise get, and that's frustrating.

I doubt Steve Long would consider himself harmed by d20 - discounting that it paid his wage for sometime and provides another source of income. d20 has brought many old timers back to the gaming table - many of them fondly remeber Champions. I think, subjectivly that it is one of the 'greyer' games out there. Anything that brings older gamers into the game store helps Hero.

Relatively, the system is selling like gangbusters. Hero is unlikely to match the sales of stong d20 products, but everyone knew that when they lined up at the gate.
 

I'd like to get my foot into the door myself. I think I'll start small, though. I'm thinking modules because for one thing, it looks like the sourcebook / module ratio is a bit skewed right now. Does anyone else think that we need to have more adventures available?

Also, I don't necessarily think that seeing crap emerge with the D20 license is that much of a surprise. There was crap coming out at all times in the RPG industry. The percentage may have wavered a bit at times, but it was always there. I can only hope that I don't buy any, or even more, make any and publish it.
 


Theuderic said:
D2o market producing crap? nahhh lol

I mean this in a friendly, constructive way, truly, but I've been seeing you post along these lines a lot. While I agree with the basic premise, there is also a lot of good material. Continually posting like this, without adding to the discussion, will eventually cause people to simply ignore your posts. This thread is being posted to by many of the heavy-hitters in the d20 and RPG industry - if you have specific gripes, this is the best place to post them. Throwaway posts like this give nothing to work with discussion-wise. There is a difference between posting criticism and simply trolling. This is just trolling. I'd actually be interested in what you think if it was presented in a well-reasoned way.
 

Kilmore said:
Does anyone else think that we need to have more adventures available?

i would really like to see more options for modules available. i like the idea of mods that would run PCs from levels 1 to 20, but using the WotC mods wouldn't work with my group (too many have played them, heard about them, read them)

i also wouldn't mind seeing sets of these types of mods, each in different regions, or with a different flavor. (like a set of mods based in one large city, etc.)

i know there are some mega-mods out there, but they typically require PCs to be higher than first level. maybe some of those need lead-in mods, to get the PCs to the levels required (?)
 

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