Shapechange Questions

[szilard]

Some questions about Shapechange:

Say I shapechange into a Construct of whatever type:

- Do I gain immunity to mind-affecting effects?

- My Constitution score presumably goes away. Does this affect my hit points?

- What happens if I subsequently use a Constitution-boosting effect, does it simply fizzle?

If I shapechange into an Animal:

- If I subsequently use Animal Growth on myself, what happens if I turn into a different animal? Does the spell continue to work? Is it suspended until I turn back into the original animal? Does it end? What if I briefly turn into something of a type other than Animal?

- Similarly, what happens if I use Greater Magic Fang (which targets living creatures) and then turn into a construct or undead thing?


-Stuart

 

[szilard]

Another Shapechange question:

If you have reached the top of a transformational class that changes your type (Dragon Disciple, Alienist, Exemplar, or whatever) and you use Shapechange, what is your type? That which you shapechange into or that which is granted you by a class feature that you don't lose?

-Stuart

 

[Hypersmurf]

Another Shapechange question:

If you have reached the top of a transformational class that changes your type (Dragon Disciple, Alienist, Exemplar, or whatever) and you use Shapechange, what is your type? That which you shapechange into or that which is granted you by a class feature that you don't lose?

Interesting question, but I think it's covered by the 'Multiple Magical Effects' section of the Magic Overview in the PHB, under 'One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant'.

The example is someone shapechanged into a goldfish, who then is polymorphed into an eagle. The shapechange spell is still in effect, but they end up as a human shapechanged into a goldfish polymorphed into an eagle - their form is that of an eagle.

So you'd be a human whose Type became Dragon whose Type became, say, Construct; your class feature is still in effect, but the shapechange spell renders it temporarily irrelevant.

Regarding your other questions, it's all made murky by the introduction of the Polymorph subschool in PHBII.

But as far as I can tell, when you change Type (which I believe still happens with Shapechange even under the Polymorph subschool), you generally retain the features of your original Type, but gain the traits of the new Type. No Con score and immunity to mind-affecting effects are traits of the COnstruct type, so they'll apply.

Your hit points stay the same unless they specifically change in the spell description... which they don't. So the loss of Con has no effect on your hit points.

A Con-boosting spell will take effect (as long as it can target a Construct), but won't do anything. If you change to a form with a Con score, however, the spell (already operating on you) will behave normally.

Regarding Animal Growth and Magic Fang: the spell only cares about satisfying the target parameters at casting time. The example in the FAQ is, from memory, a humanoid targeted with Hold Person, who subsequently turns into an Ogre (a giant); he is still held, because the spell came into effect on a valid target.

So if you Shapechange into a wolf and have Animal Growth cast on you, you'll increase in size. If you then turn into a bear, you'll be a bear increased in size. If you then turn into a halfling, you'll be a halfling increased in size, because the Animal Growth spell is still in effect on you. (Note that there's debate as to whether Animal Growth and Shapechange count as 'multiple magical effects that increase size', if you turn into, say, a dire tiger. Are you a normal-sized dire tiger (whose size can be increased by Animal Growth), or are you a dire tiger two sizes larger than your normal human form (whose size increase won't stack with Animal Growth)?)

Magic Fang followed by a change in Type is the same - if the spell's already in effect, it won't stop working.

Note that a druid's Wildshape (unlike Shapechange) no longer changes Type. An elf Wildshaped into a wolf is still a Humanoid (Elf).

-Hyp.

 

[szilard]

Interesting question, but I think it's covered by the 'Multiple Magical Effects' section of the Magic Overview in the PHB, under 'One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant'.

The example is someone shapechanged into a goldfish, who then is polymorphed into an eagle. The shapechange spell is still in effect, but they end up as a human shapechanged into a goldfish polymorphed into an eagle - their form is that of an eagle.

So you'd be a human whose Type became Dragon whose Type became, say, Construct; your class feature is still in effect, but the shapechange spell renders it temporarily irrelevant.

Hmmm...

Is the effect a magic one, though? The Dragon Disciple's Claws, Bite, Ability Score Increases, Natural Armor, Blindsight, and Wings are all Extraordinary Abilities (and Dragon Apoethesis is untyped). The only explicitly (Su) class feature it has (which would be lost under shapechange) is the Breath Weapon. Presumably, all the (Ex) class features would stay - which is odd (you become an Ooze with claws, bite, and wings?), but makes sense from a mechanics/balance perspective (since they are class features).

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm working on wrapping my head around this stuff.

-Stuart

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is the effect a magic one, though?

Well, it's a good question.

But Dragon Apotheosis says that you take on the half-dragon template. Alter Self says you cannot take the form of a creature with a template, so assuming that carries through to Polymorph and Shapechange, you cannot take the form of an Ooze with the Half-Dragon template. This either means that a/ Shapechange supercedes Dragon Apotheosis, and you take the form of an Ooze without the Half-Dragon template, or b/ Dragon Apotheosis supercedes Shapechange, and any form you take will have the Half-Dragon template, which means all forms are prohibited.

... assuming the template note carries through.

Polymorph does say "Your type changes to match the new form", so I would suggest that whether or not Dragon Apotheosis is magic, when you take on a new form with Polymorph (or Shapechange), your type changes for the duration of the spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Iku Rex]

- Do I gain immunity to mind-affecting effects?

Yes. According to Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (Part )4 that's a natural ability and gained even with polymorph. The FAQ suggests (more correctly IMO) that racial traits are extraordinary but you get those too with shapechange.

- My Constitution score presumably goes away. Does this affect my hit points?

Based on similar abilities, the RAW and examples in WotC's published supplements: No. Based on Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (Part 3) : Yes.

- What happens if I subsequently use a Constitution-boosting effect, does it simply fizzle?

Not sure about this one. If you're a legal target for the spell I'd say it "works", but until you change into a form with a Con to enhance it does nothing.

If I shapechange into an Animal:

- If I subsequently use Animal Growth on myself, what happens if I turn into a different animal? Does the spell continue to work? Is it suspended until I turn back into the original animal? Does it end? What if I briefly turn into something of a type other than Animal?

Tricky.

According to the FAQ, you only need to be a valid target as a spell is cast, so the spell will still be in effect if you take a non-animal form.

According to Polymorph Revisited (Part 4) physical changes to your body (like extra arms) are "overwritten" by a new form. You'd probably loose the size, size modifiers and natural armor, and keep the DR. They'd still be lost if you tuned back to the original animal.

- Similarly, what happens if I use Greater Magic Fang (which targets living creatures) and then turn into a construct or undead thing?

It'd work just fine. (Again according to the FAQ.)

If you have reached the top of a transformational class that changes your type (Dragon Disciple, Alienist, Exemplar, or whatever) and you use Shapechange, what is your type? That which you shapechange into or that which is granted you by a class feature that you don't lose?

Also tricky. I guess that since you technically still have the class feature you'll be affected by it in all new forms.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Based on similar abilities, the RAW and examples in WotC's published supplements: No. Based on Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (Part 3) : Yes.

I think the new Polymorph subschool makes RotG even less correct; Shapechange is now part of the subschool, and the subschool states that unless the spell specifies otherwise, certain things apply, and one of those things is "The target retains its own hit points".

So even if you're one of the people who maintains that "You retain your own... hit points" doesn't carry through to Shapechange from Alter Self, you're now left with the fact that since Shapechange doesn't address hit points at all, the subschool definition kicks in.

-Hyp.

 

[szilard]

Well, it's a good question.

But Dragon Apotheosis says that you take on the half-dragon template. Alter Self says you cannot take the form of a creature with a template, so assuming that carries through to Polymorph and Shapechange, you cannot take the form of an Ooze with the Half-Dragon template. This either means that a/ Shapechange supercedes Dragon Apotheosis, and you take the form of an Ooze without the Half-Dragon template, or b/ Dragon Apotheosis supercedes Shapechange, and any form you take will have the Half-Dragon template, which means all forms are prohibited.

... assuming the template note carries through.

Hmmm....

You can't use the spell to take the form of a creature with a template, however, can you use the spell to take the form of a creature - to which your class features may apply a template?

For comparison: imagine that there was a spell of the polymorph subschool that simply applied the Half-Dragon template to the caster. Is there any reason that such a spell could not be used while you were under the effect of Alter Self?

I really don't know what the answer to all of this is, but it is interesting.

-Stuart

 

[Hypersmurf]

For comparison: imagine that there was a spell of the polymorph subschool that simply applied the Half-Dragon template to the caster. Is there any reason that such a spell could not be used while you were under the effect of Alter Self?

While under the effect of Alter Self, no problem. But the other way around, using Alter Self while under the effect of Half-Dragonize? Either Alter Self wouldn't work (because any for you attempted to take would be prohibited), or you would end up in a form without the Half-Dragon template.

-Hyp.

 

[szilard]

Actually, thinking about it, that would be a pretty cool spell.

-Stuart