Shapeshift druid vs regular druid

[Cactot]

I don't agree that a shapeshift druid is "significantly" weaker than a wildshape druid. On what premise do are you basing this argument? The fact that the druid loses racial bonus feats? Racial skills? Special qualities? Access to magic items? Those four things, taken together, are what make both the polymorph line and wildshape too good.

I agree that a single-classed fighter is going to be better at fighting than a single classed druid, regardless of level. But that doesn't mean a druid's fighting is bad; quite the contrary. I think our single point of contention is the fact that a druid, as it stands, is "too good." I feel he is, you feel he isn't. As long as neither opinion changes, there's no point in continuing this debate.

I dont disagree that the druid should be toned down a bit, though as they stand they arent really any more powerful than most of the other pure casers. But our contention is that I think the shapeshift variant is too weak, and you do not. I want the druid to be able to at least stand a couple rounds of combat, as it is with the shapeshifting variant any monster of a CR of the druids level would likely hit with every iterative attack, and just tear up the druid.

I suppose the other thing that we disagree about is that i dislike the fact that it turns the druid into another MAD class, which is the last thing we need. Any low point buy campaign punishes the MAD classes far more than the specialized classes. Also, it doesnt really ruin the druids power for melee combat, it just delays it quite a few levels. Shapechange is still absurdly good.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I suppose the other thing that we disagree about is that i dislike the fact that it turns the druid into another MAD class, which is the last thing we need. Any low point buy campaign punishes the MAD classes far more than the specialized classes. Also, it doesnt really ruin the druids power for melee combat, it just delays it quite a few levels. Shapechange is still absurdly good.

I don't think the Druid does become a class with more "Multiple Ability Dependency" than a Cleric. If a Cleric wants to be great at combat, he better has good physical stats, too, since they all stack with his boost/buff spells.

The Druids shapeshifting is essentially his version of buff spells.

That said, the Shapeshifting as presented isn't perfect (perhaps even not good). While the basic idea is great and adresses exactly the problems with Wild Shape (and Polymorph, though there unfortunately isn't a Polymorph equivalent of Shapeshifting), the execution is lacking.

As others have adressed:
1) It shouldn't really be enhancement bonus granted. This makes it "unstackable" with buff spells, and that is unfair, unless the bonus increase considerably (but then, it becomes pointless to have both!)
2) The cost as presented is a bit too high - there is no real balance reason to give up an Animal Companion.
3) There should probably be a Shapeshifting equivalent of Natural Spell, even with the swift action shapechange.
4) Important Animal (and later plant/elemental) traits should be available, like special movement modes and water breathing. (I am not so adamant on gaining types or subtypes - Mindless as a plant doesn't make sense for a Druid that clearly has a mind, I think, but immune to criticals in elemental form is fine with me )

The following aspects are good:
1) Using "meta-forms" instead of having to base off everything of existing creatures. The standard wildshape variant leads to cherry-pecking, but also a lot of paperwork - looking up creatures and so on.
2) Basing new ability scores of base scores. This is fair to other classes, and also allows Druids to have an actual use for their "natural" physical ability scores.

 

[Cactot]

Well, a cleric is not quite as MAD as a druid. Clerics need only Wis, Con, Str, typically in that order. Dex is a non-issue because it will be mostly unused because of the full plate + magic items they will be wearing. Druids (shapeshift variants) now need Wis, Dex, Con, Str in that order, since without a high dex (and a dip into monk) their AC will be horrendous, seeing as none of their armor or magical items work while in shapeshift form. Although its only one more stat, that represents a pretty significant investment in a point buy situation.

 

[ForceUser]

I dont disagree that the druid should be toned down a bit, though as they stand they arent really any more powerful than most of the other pure casers. But our contention is that I think the shapeshift variant is too weak, and you do not. I want the druid to be able to at least stand a couple rounds of combat, as it is with the shapeshifting variant any monster of a CR of the druids level would likely hit with every iterative attack, and just tear up the druid.

I have actually seen a shapeshift druid in play for several sessions now. I don't think he suffers in combat at all. The character is attached, if you'd like to look at him. He's built on a 28-point buy (give or take). Scroll down for his shapeshift forms. Quite frankly, after seeing him get down, I think he owns.

 

[Aikuchi]

... *gulp* ...

I favour toward supporting the Shapeshifter variant as on par with my perception on what balances the druid. I feel shapeshift is a very good balance variant on what wildshape should have been like.

Granted, a few things could be altered, but with little trouble.
1. A few forms, perhaps one more based on utility.
2. The retention of the animal companion. (but as easily can be done without).

I do believe the swift action more than allows ease of moving between spell and combat performance well without the need for Natural Spell (which was potentially problematic with the original wildshape function).

I also believe it makes a wonderful single class advancement as well.

I dont feel it serves the same role of the cleric in most parties and cant be compared effectively if you take the shaper abilities out of consideration when comparing both classes. Not do I find the shaping aspect to ideally define the whole role of the druid.

It seems I'm mostly in the "ForceUser" school of thought on this.

 

[Cactot]

Overall, not too bad, i am moderately impressed with the synergy between shifter and this druid variant. Now i see the potential for it to be a good variant for the druid, but i am adamant that it needs to be adjusted, there are still too many problems with the variant imho.

questions:
how are you working the combination of shifter/shapeshift druid and the overlapping of their abilities, are they just stacking like rage would? what sort of bonus does the shifter bonus add?
what is riastarthae in the context of dnd? all i know it as is something in irish folklore. Is that what you are calling your alternate form from your race?

comments:
I assume your not planning on going for full druidic caster level, as your 14 wisdom would prove rather problematic to casting high level spells. this makes it so you have far more points to spread around into physical stats than a spellcasting druid would.

I also feel that i should note that lvl 8 is the epitome of relative power for the build, you just got a good new form, and you have more attacks than a standard melee class. As you level further your casting stat will cause problems for your offensive magic, nothing you can do as you level, short of getting to the next form or taking warshaper/natures warrior or some other class that will boost your stats with an unnamed bonus, will do anything to improve your combat effectiveness.

Your build is also close to the optimized limit for a semi-standard race with a semi-standard poitn buy. Very little else seems to mesh well with the variant, though obviously the power curve would be much different for a high powered race with a large point buy.


The power curve looks something like this for this variety of druid: 5 dashes being the equivalent of a not very well built, but tolerable melee combatant. 1 being very underpowered, 10 being the equivalent of a well optimized melee combatant.

01 -----
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05 ---
06 --
07 -
08 -------
09 -----
10 -----
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13 ---
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15 --
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17 ---
18 --
19 -
20 -

A standard druid looks something like this

01 ----
02 ----
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[ForceUser]

Overall, not too bad, i am moderately impressed with the synergy between shifter and this druid variant. Now i see the potential for it to be a good variant for the druid, but i am adamant that it needs to be adjusted, there are still too many problems with the variant imho.

Honestly, I think you should see it in play for a while before judging it. YMMV, but experience is the best illustrator.

how are you working the combination of shifter/shapeshift druid and the overlapping of their abilities, are they just stacking like rage would?

Stacks like rage. It's a little funky when meshing a razorclaw shifter (claws are primary) with the predator form (bite is primary), but the synergy is much better with the ferocious slayer form.

what sort of bonus does the shifter bonus add?

Razorclaw shifters gain +2 Str and natural claw attacks while shifting.

what is riastarthae in the context of dnd? all i know it as is something in irish folklore. Is that what you are calling your alternate form from your race?

Yes, riastarthae is just a campaign-specific name for shifting.

I assume your not planning on going for full druidic caster level, as your 14 wisdom would prove rather problematic to casting high level spells. this makes it so you have far more points to spread around into physical stats than a spellcasting druid would.

The player is planning on taking five full levels of nature's warrior. After that, I don't know. I'm expecting him to seek out a Wisdom item at some point. He'll never be the spellcaster that the Wis-focused wildshape druid is, but that's not what he's going for.

I also feel that i should note that lvl 8 is the epitome of relative power for the build, you just got a good new form, and you have more attacks than a standard melee class. As you level further your casting stat will cause problems for your offensive magic, nothing you can do as you level, short of getting to the next form or taking warshaper/natures warrior or some other class that will boost your stats with an unnamed bonus, will do anything to improve your combat effectiveness.

I wouldn't be surprised if the character abandoned the druid class after finishing the PrC progression. Barbarian would synergize well, don't you think? Gah, what a monster that would be! Hope the player doesn't read this thread.

As for relative power, I dunno--if he sticks with druid, he'll get forest avenger form at 12th and elemental fury form at 16th. Both are potent. I think he'll do okay. Also, I think that there are too many variables--campaign style, stat generation method, and abundance of magical wealth, to name three--to qualitatively measure the relative power of shapeshift v. wildshape with any accuracy. That said, everything is relative. When I DM, I balance encounters against what the group is capable of handling, not against blind CRs. So IMC, it doesn't matter if the druid is wildshape or shapeshift, because he's going to face challenging opponents either way. Given that, I might as well go with the variant that's less of a headache for me to adjudicate.

 

[Rkhet]

Overall, not too bad, i am moderately impressed with the synergy between shifter and this druid variant. Now i see the potential for it to be a good variant for the druid, but i am adamant that it needs to be adjusted, there are still too many problems with the variant imho.

questions:
how are you working the combination of shifter/shapeshift druid and the overlapping of their abilities, are they just stacking like rage would? what sort of bonus does the shifter bonus add?
what is riastarthae in the context of dnd? all i know it as is something in irish folklore. Is that what you are calling your alternate form from your race?

comments:
I assume your not planning on going for full druidic caster level, as your 14 wisdom would prove rather problematic to casting high level spells. this makes it so you have far more points to spread around into physical stats than a spellcasting druid would.

I also feel that i should note that lvl 8 is the epitome of relative power for the build, you just got a good new form, and you have more attacks than a standard melee class. As you level further your casting stat will cause problems for your offensive magic, nothing you can do as you level, short of getting to the next form or taking warshaper/natures warrior or some other class that will boost your stats with an unnamed bonus, will do anything to improve your combat effectiveness.

Your build is also close to the optimized limit for a semi-standard race with a semi-standard poitn buy. Very little else seems to mesh well with the variant, though obviously the power curve would be much different for a high powered race with a large point buy.


The power curve looks something like this for this variety of druid: 5 dashes being the equivalent of a not very well built, but tolerable melee combatant. 1 being very underpowered, 10 being the equivalent of a well optimized melee combatant.

01 -----
02 -----
03 ----
04 ----
05 ---
06 --
07 -
08 -------
09 -----
10 -----
11 ---
12 ----
13 ---
14 ---
15 --
16 ----
17 ---
18 --
19 -
20 -

A standard druid looks something like this

01 ----
02 ----
03 ---
04 ---
05 ------
06 ------
07 ------
08 -------
09 -------
10 -------
11 -------
12 -------
13 ------
14 ------
15 ------
16 -----
17 -----
18 -----
19 -----
20 -----

You didn't take Shapechange into consideration in your power curve. This should pretty much replace Wildshape for the standard druid at level 17. I'd say it bumps power up to 8 or even higher if you use it right.

Does Shapechange stack with the shapeshifting druid bonus? If so, there's a bit of light at the end of the tunnel for them. Good luck getting there from level one, though. Even more so if you're giving up spell levels along the way - a neccessity, almost.

 

[Drowbane]

No offense, Drowbane, but if you're unhappy with shapeshift, that only reinforces my belief that it is balanced. ).

Z I N G!!

In any case, a real fix to wildshape was long overdue. Going forward IMC, shapeshift replaces wildshape for all druids (though I won't force the current wildshape druid to switch).

While I've never seen M abuse wildshape (except perhaps that bogus trick of using Flameblade on top of his claw-attack)... this smacks just a bit of favortism.

Anyways, I'm not "unhappy" with shapeshift. Its just not a variant that I'd consider using. Kind of like the Cloistered Cleric and Battle Sorc variants.

 

[ForceUser]

While I've never seen M abuse wildshape (except perhaps that bogus trick of using Flameblade on top of his claw-attack)... this smacks just a bit of favortism.

Not at all. He's grandfathered. I'm not going to force him to rebuild a lvl 9 druid from the ground up mid-campaign. Besides, he's attached to Skellig and would miss him.