Shield cantrip

[doctorbadwolf]

Because shield proffeciencies on casters ussualy costs either feats or multi-classing (ussualy both or several feats since you almost always need warcaster aswell). The shield spell costs spell slots. A cantrip is free...Pretty big difference and obvious stuff, my dude.

OTOH, casters that don't get shields pretty much don't get them for flavor reasons, IMO. There's no reason to disallow casters to have good AC.

Still, most suggestions for this Cantrip are too much.

Keep it +1 (maybe going to +2 when your proficiency goes to +4) but don't let it stack with a shield. You'll only use it where it actually makes a difference after all.

Not letting it stack with a shield makes sense. I'd also be fine with half proficiency, and take half damage from Magic Missile, if the goal is to actually just make the Shield Spell into a cantrip. If not, then I'd prefer something other than a flat bonus, like imposing a reroll, or giving an attack a 1d4 penalty, or something.

I would suggest against a scaling bonus to AC.

5e scales toughness with HPs, not AC. Part of the bounded accuracy paradigm. A +X to AC will stop about the same ratio of attacks, but stop a lot more damage at high levels. Scaling the AC makes it exponential - it turns more hits into misses times the increase damage for each miss.

5e doesn't scale spells by caster level (cantrips are a different matter) and that's part of the solve for quadratic wizards.

And as a side note, going by proficiency means that any dip gets it at full scaling. I don't suggest scaling, but if you do please make it by class level or caster level.

Well, that's just how cantrips work in 5e. If it does something where it would become useless to the caster at high levels without scaling, it scales by character level.

What I'd suggest for a spell that is supposed to be a minor version of Shield, rather than literally replace the Shield spell entirely, is either what I wrote above, or give a scaling THP and Resist Force until start of your next turn as a reaction. THP never stacks, so using it every time you're attacked can't cheese anything, and healing and damage are considered about equal by the design team, and THP is just proactive healing.

But what I want to know is, what is the problem being fixed? Is the Shield spell not doing it for OP? Then I encourage proficiency bonus (or half) to AC and Resist Force until start of next turn, as a reaction, and get rid of the Shield spell.

If they want a minor magical defense cantrip, I suggest any one of my suggestions above.

If they want it to feel like the mage is skillfully using magical force to stop attacks, I recommend a cantrip that imposes a penalty, specifically.

 

[Blue]

Well, that's just how cantrips work in 5e. If it does something where it would become useless to the caster at high levels without scaling, it scales by character level.

This is trivially proven wrong. Please show us one non-damage cantrip that scales with level.

Even other defensive cantrips like Blade Ward do not. It scales because the attacks are bigger and therefore you will resist more damage - just like Shield will with a static bonus to AC.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is trivially proven wrong. Please show us one non-damage cantrip that scales with level.

Even other defensive cantrips like Blade Ward do not. It scales because the attacks are bigger and therefore you will resist more damage - just like Shield will with a static bonus to AC.

Blade Ward does scale, it just does so without any work on the player end, because it works via percentages rather than absolute numbers. Ie, it doesn't become useless at later levels "without scaling".

A cantrip that boosts AC should scale, even if only a tiny amount, because it shouldn't become less useful as attack bonuses go up. Enemies are doing damage that scales with PC HP values, so a benefit that saves you from attacks less of the time is losing value.

It's kinda lame, though, that this is the only thing you have to say from that whole post full of suggestions for how to make a good cantrip that accomplishes the OP goals.

 

[Blue]

Blade Ward does scale, it just does so without any work on the player end, because it works via percentages rather than absolute numbers. Ie, it doesn't become useless at later levels "without scaling".

A cantrip that boosts AC should scale, even if only a tiny amount, because it shouldn't become less useful as attack bonuses go up. Enemies are doing damage that scales with PC HP values, so a benefit that saves you from attacks less of the time is losing value.

Shield already scales the exact same way. +5 to AC means 25% of the attacks will miss because of it. It doesn't matter if that 25% is 10-14 on the d20 or 13-17. Yes, there's a little bit of oddness around a 20 always hitting, but that's the least part.

It's kinda lame, though, that this is the only thing you have to say from that whole post full of suggestions for how to make a good cantrip that accomplishes the OP goals.

My focus had been that Shield already scales, and that was really the only point I was was up to speed to address. You mention tHP and Resist Force from a previous email, but I didn't recall your exact proposal off the top of my head to speak to it. It's not condemnation of your other suggestions, just that this was the one I had something to say about.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Shield already scales the exact same way. +5 to AC means 25% of the attacks will miss because of it. It doesn't matter if that 25% is 10-14 on the d20 or 13-17. Yes, there's a little bit of oddness around a 20 always hitting, but that's the least part.



My focus had been that Shield already scales, and that was really the only point I was was up to speed to address. You mention tHP and Resist Force from a previous email, but I didn't recall your exact proposal off the top of my head to speak to it. It's not condemnation of your other suggestions, just that this was the one I had something to say about.

Fair enough, though some of it is in the same post you quoted, I think.

Anyway, the Shield spell actually does get less good as you level, because there will be fewer times where the +5 makes the difference, unless you're AC goes up. Shield is a weird spell.

But like I said to others, the simpler solution is to make it distinct from Shield, and have it be a reaction to gain THP, or impose a penalty on the attack, and/or resist force. +AC is rare in 5e for a reason, you already have Shield and Mage Armor, a cantrip should be more interesting than that.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Until the start of your next turn, you have a bonus to AC equal to your proficiency modifier. This includes the triggering attack. You also take no damage from Magic Missile.

Wait, I'm unclear on this. Does it take a reaction to cast like Shield? Or is it a 1 action casting time? If the former, it's too strong. If the later, it's not such a bad idea.

Here is a similar cantrip I created for my players as a sample of making their own:

Quick Ward

Abjuration
Level: Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a tiny square sheet of metal)
Duration: 1 round

You wave your hand across your front towards a target within range, you grant the target a +1 bonus to Armor Class and Saving Throws until the beginning of your next turn.

Just a suggestion.

I like this. Only I would make 2 changes. First, I would make it concentration, similar to Guidance. Second, I wpuld have it scale with an additional +1 at level 5, 11, and 17.

 

[Staffan]

Fair enough, though some of it is in the same post you quoted, I think.

Anyway, the Shield spell actually does get less good as you level, because there will be fewer times where the +5 makes the difference, unless you're AC goes up. Shield is a weird spell.

Not unless your AC is low enough that attacks autohit.

First, let's look at a novice mage. They have Dex 14, mage armor, and not much more, for a total AC of 15. Most things you fight have about a +4 to hit, so they hit on 11+. With shield up, they hit on 16+ instead. So +5 blocks 25% of the attacks made (and about 50% of the hits that would otherwise have hit).

Then, let's look at a 12th level mage. Let's say they have Dex 16 (because at that point they probably maxed Int already and started working on secondary stats), and they use mage armor and have either a cloak of protection or ring of protection, for a total AC of 13+3+1 = 17.

Now let's look at some monsters in the CR 9-12 range. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but it would appear most have an attack bonus of about +10. Some have less, some have more, but +10 seems about right for monsters that are about hitting you. So they hit on 7+ - or 12+ if you have shield up. That's still 25% of attacks made that get blocked, though it's a smaller percentage of attacks that would have hit (about 35%).

So whether or not shield loses effectiveness with level depends on your perspective. It will block one attack out of every four made regardless of level, but it will go from reducing damage taken by about 50% to about 35% from 1st to 12th level.

That calculation is fairly conservative about high-level mage AC, though. You could instead have a robe of the archmage and bracers of defense for 15+3+2 = 20 AC, in which case the required attack roll goes from 10 to 15, which is pretty much the same as at 1st level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not unless your AC is low enough that attacks autohit.

First, let's look at a novice mage. They have Dex 14, mage armor, and not much more, for a total AC of 15. Most things you fight have about a +4 to hit, so they hit on 11+. With shield up, they hit on 16+ instead. So +5 blocks 25% of the attacks made (and about 50% of the hits that would otherwise have hit).

Then, let's look at a 12th level mage. Let's say they have Dex 16 (because at that point they probably maxed Int already and started working on secondary stats), and they use mage armor and have either a cloak of protection or ring of protection, for a total AC of 13+3+1 = 17.

Now let's look at some monsters in the CR 9-12 range. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but it would appear most have an attack bonus of about +10. Some have less, some have more, but +10 seems about right for monsters that are about hitting you. So they hit on 7+ - or 12+ if you have shield up. That's still 25% of attacks made that get blocked, though it's a smaller percentage of attacks that would have hit (about 35%).

So whether or not shield loses effectiveness with level depends on your perspective. It will block one attack out of every four made regardless of level, but it will go from reducing damage taken by about 50% to about 35% from 1st to 12th level.

That calculation is fairly conservative about high-level mage AC, though. You could instead have a robe of the archmage and bracers of defense for 15+3+2 = 20 AC, in which case the required attack roll goes from 10 to 15, which is pretty much the same as at 1st level.

Why are you assuming magic items?

Also, if the spell requires magic items *and other spells* to stay “as effective”, then it has lost efficacy.

 

[Pauln6]

Not unless your AC is low enough that attacks autohit.First, let's look at a novice mage. They have Dex 14, mage armor, and not much more, for a total AC of 15. Most things you fight have about a +4 to hit, so they hit on 11+. With shield up, they hit on 16+ instead. So +5 blocks 25% of the attacks made (and about 50% of the hits that would otherwise have hit).Then, let's look at a 12th level mage. Let's say they have Dex 16 (because at that point they probably maxed Int already and started working on secondary stats), and they use mage armor and have either a cloak of protection or ring of protection, for a total AC of 13+3+1 = 17.Now let's look at some monsters in the CR 9-12 range. I didn't do an exhaustive search, but it would appear most have an attack bonus of about +10. Some have less, some have more, but +10 seems about right for monsters that are about hitting you. So they hit on 7+ - or 12+ if you have shield up. That's still 25% of attacks made that get blocked, though it's a smaller percentage of attacks that would have hit (about 35%).So whether or not shield loses effectiveness with level depends on your perspective. It will block one attack out of every four made regardless of level, but it will go from reducing damage taken by about 50% to about 35% from 1st to 12th level.That calculation is fairly conservative about high-level mage AC, though. You could instead have a robe of the archmage and bracers of defense for 15+3+2 = 20 AC, in which case the required attack roll goes from 10 to 15, which is pretty much the same as at 1st level.

Also the classes have been designed mathematically to emulate 1e classes to an extent. Higher level mages can mitigate massive amounts of damage with targeted spells but they aren't intended to be able to absorb damage or attacks. The goalposts shifted but what we see here is very similar to high level 1e wizards with AC -1 compared to fighter's -5 and 30hp compared to the fighter's 100hp. Obviously players want their PCs to shine in more scenarios but there are reasons why they shouldn't alongside ways to make sure they can do better in some scenarios.Consider also bladesingers when looking at AC variables and Eldritch Knights ability to cast a cantrip as a bonus action.

 

[BacchusNL]

Why are you assuming magic items?

Also, if the spell requires magic items *and other spells* to stay “as effective”, then it has lost efficacy.

Because magic items, esspecialy "common" stuff like bracers or cloak of protection, are readilly available and applicable to most encounters @ lvl 12. And when you say it looses effeciency at higher levels then you are disregarding the fact that spending lvl 1 spell slots on shield when you also also have lvl 3-6 spell spell slots really isn't that big of a deal, while at lower level's using that spell slot immediatly cuts into what other spells you can cast that day. I think the spell is more then fine at any point in the game (and don't think a cantrip version is needed), but I can also see how some people might feel bad about using a shield and seeing 1/3 (or all of them, if you are a warlock) of their spell slots melt away.