Shield Mastery CSR Response

[Xorn]

Just got this back from a CSR, thought I'd share:

Customer (Jason) 07/01/2008 03:49 PM Shield Mastery (Paragon Feat) on page 206 indicates that "You gain a +1 feat bonus to AC and Reflex when using a shield with which you are proficient."

The Armor Mastery feats for Hide, Chain, Scale, and Plate also give a similar +1 feat bonus to AC when wearing the respective armor.

According to Bonuses & Penalties on page 275, you can only have one feat bonus to a roll or score. In this instance, if a character has Plate Mastery and Shield Mastery, by the rules in the book they only get +1 AC & +1 Reflex. (Meaning the Plate Mastery is doing nothing.)

Is this intentional, or should the wording of Shield Mastery actually be, "You may increase your shield bonus by 1 when using a shield you are proficient with."?

At the moment, Shield Mastery is only really useful for Cloth & Leather wearers, while Hide, Chain, and Scale wearers get a reduction in armor check penalty and/or movement from their Mastery--and Plate Mastery literally confers nothing if you have Shield Mastery.

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Page Number: Page 206 & 275
Book Name: Player's Handbook (4E)

Response (Support Agent) 07/01/2008 06:46 PM
Jason,

This is how it works, and it is intentional. They do not stack.

Evan T.
Customer Service Representative

Color me unimpressed. If you use a shield, then Shield Mastery makes Plate Specialization worthless, Scale only remove the movement penalty, and Chain & Hide remove the check penalty. The only reason to take Plate Specialization is if you flat-out don't use a shield. I guess I felt there should be SOME other effect, like reducing the check penalty by 1. I just don't like the shield feat completely negating the plate feat. At least the other armor specializations are getting something

 

[Danceofmasks]

Umm, or ... the Paladin doesn't have 15 dex?

 

[FireLance]

Alternatively, if you already have Plate Specialization, take Lightning Reflexes instead.

 

[Xorn]

Fair enough point. Of course Heavy Blades need 15 Dex (and 17 at Epic), and you only have to start with a 13 DEX to get shield spec at Epic).

Hide Armor + 18 DEX = 17 base AC, right?
+8 DEX + Two Weapon Defense + Hide Specialization = 23 base AC

The guy in plate w/ heavy shield maxes has 20 base AC,
and shield spec gets him to 21 base AC.

I guess I think it's a little silly that a ranger with a bow is going to have a higher AC than a paladin in plate with a heavy shield. Meh, the defender has more surges, right? /shrug

Anyway, the point I was trying to make:

Your Armor and Shield bonuses stack. I don't like that your Armor and Shield feats do not stack. Hide + Dexterity already can get a higher base AC than Plate + Heavy Shield (with just an 18), and if these feats don't stack, then so can Leather + Dexterity. Feels wonky.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, masterwork light armour gets +1/+2 extra AC. Masterwork heavy armour gets +3/+6 extra AC.
For a class that can afford to dump dex as well as int, they're not behind in AC.

 

[theNater]

Hide Armor + 18 DEX = 17 base AC, right?
+8 DEX + Two Weapon Defense + Hide Specialization = 23 base AC

The guy in plate w/ heavy shield maxes has 20 base AC,
and shield spec gets him to 21 base AC.

I guess I think it's a little silly that a ranger with a bow is going to have a higher AC than a paladin in plate with a heavy shield. Meh, the defender has more surges, right? /shrug

To get a +8 from dex, the ranger needs a 26 dex. That's a minimum of level 21. If the paladin is in warplate, as is appropriate to his level, he's got an AC of 24(+11 armor, +2 shield, +1 feat). Of course, we also need to put the ranger into Darkhide for an extra +1, bringing their totals to exactly the same. Given that the ranger has his dex maxed out and the paladin hasn't needed to put any points into dex at all, I think this is reasonable.

Or have you found some ranger ability with which I am unfamiliar that allows the ranger to add double his dex bonus to AC?

 

[ozziewolf]

I'm some what on the fense with the issue but I will say this.

One is a Defender and one is a Striker. It seems a little odd for them to have the same AC as I would think a Striker would cap out 2-3 AC lower than a Defender.

It's not really game breaking either way, it just seems a little odd.

As a person who plays a Melee Rogue I actually like it!

Although if I'm not mistaken the Defender will be able to hit that high AC long before a Striker could. I haven't actually looked at the numbers but it seems that way.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, a wizard that takes leather proficiency also has a really high AC.
I don't think it's odd, 'cos they're still dreadfully short of hit points.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Hide Armor + 18 DEX = 17 base AC, right?
+8 DEX + Two Weapon Defense + Hide Specialization = 23 base AC

The guy in plate w/ heavy shield maxes has 20 base AC,
and shield spec gets him to 21 base AC.

The question I have to ask is either: why is your archer ranger wielding two weapons? Or, why is your dual-blade ranger dumping nearly everything into Dex?
EDIT: I suppose I forgot about rogues in hide armor. That makes the +8 Dex + hide + TWD plausible. Still only even footing until you hit level 26 and get top-grade masterwork armor, putting the heavy-armor folks ahead another 3 points.

A ranger with +8 Dex isn't going to be using Two Weapon Defense, but would have darkhide armor, which leaves him at 23.

A paladin at the same level with plate, heavy shield, and either Shield Spec or Plate Spec, also with warplate, is sitting at 24 AC.

Of course, you'd likely add 4 or 5 to both of those numbers for enhancement bonus on the armor, but since it's the same for both characters it doesn't really matter.

 

[Xorne]

I only looked at base AC, because they should both have the same enhancement and item bonuses from their equipment, and be adding the same level bonus.

However, there was an aspect I wasn't considering:

Say I take that rogue with 18 starting DEX (and putting +8 to DEX is not a detriment to the rogue) then Hide Armor + Hide Specialization (+1 AC, no penalty), and add in Two Weapon Defense, and you have 23 Base AC, while the guy in Plate + Heavy Shield + Specialization in either plate or shield tops out at 21 Base AC.

BUT

I did forget that the advanced plate is much better than the advanced hide armor, which easily puts the plate + heavy shield in the lead on AC.

AND

I forgot another aspect--the shield's enhancement bonus!

If the rogue has two +6 Katars of Stabbiness, and the paladin has a +6 Shield of Can'tTouchThis... the rogue is getting +1 AC for TWD, and the paladin is getting +8 AC for his shield. Carrying a shield gives an extra enhancement bonus to AC.

IN CONCLUSION

I still think it feels wonky that armor and shield bonuses stack, but armor and shield feats do not.

Especially considering that Armor Specialization + Lightning Reflexes now makes Shield Specialization pointless.