Shifter PrC Question

[vulcan_idic]

Why does the Shifter PrC have a spellcasting requirement? Any other PrC I look at that has a spellcasting requirement has it because spellcasting is an integral part of the class, the Shifter on the other hand, has nothing to do with spellcasting, I don't see the reason it is required.

Tangentially, I'm hoping to see an official 3.5 version of the class (largely because I want to play a Changeling Monk(with Monastic Training) with Shifter levels - a scout/spy type role someday) - what does anybody think the chances it might appear in Complete Adventurer are?

P.S. Sorry if this issue has been previously addressed in another thread.

 

[vulcan_idic]

Wow...

I'm amazed!! 42 views and no comments!! I think this is the first time I've ever gotten *no* replies. I take this to mean either (a) the answer is so painfully obvious that no is bothering to dignify it with a response (I hope not...) or (b) No one else has any idea why this is a requirement either.

Assuming the reason is (b)... since there's not much I could do were it (a) since *I* still don't see it... I'm going to houserule it to something equivalent with BAB or something, taking it from the Druid since that's the base of the class. (I suppose that means this thread should now be in the House Rule forum... if it does then I thank the mods for moving it if they decide to)

I'm also looking for a 3.5 conversion still (I'm not sure how much converting it really needs... probably just the changes based on the changes to Wild Shape/Polymorph/etc. I hope it's in Complete Adventurer... otherwise I'll just houserule that too...

Thanks for the help folks!!

 

[shilsen]

I'll take a crack - the spellcasting requirement is there so that a couple more core classes have access to the PrC, since otherwise only druids (or races with shapechanging ability) could benefit from it.

 

[vulcan_idic]

I understand that in terms of the Alternate Form requirement - makes a lot of sense actually... It's the requirement to be able to cast third level spells that confuses me... that would seem to reduce the number of classes who could benefit assuming they could find a way to otherwise meet the shapeshifting/alternate form requirement - i.e. by being a Changeling (from Eberron)

But even being a natural shapeshifter, in order to take this class and further improve your innate ability... you have to be able to cast third level spells?

 

[shilsen]

I understand that in terms of the Alternate Form requirement - makes a lot of sense actually... It's the requirement to be able to cast third level spells that confuses me... that would seem to reduce the number of classes who could benefit assuming they could find a way to otherwise meet the shapeshifting/alternate form requirement - i.e. by being a Changeling (from Eberron)

But even being a natural shapeshifter, in order to take this class and further improve your innate ability... you have to be able to cast third level spells?

You're right. I'd forgotten about the separate spellcasting requirement. I agree that it doesn't seem to fit the PrC.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Hmm, perhaps it should be access to fourth level spells, when Polymorph is available for arcane casters. So it may be just a typo...

OTOH, if you use a modified version of the shifter PrC, e.g., with spell casting progression and fewer forms he can use, it would make sense. There are some different versions of the shifer PrC, some for druids only, other with spell progression...

 

[Deset Gled]

As a general rule, PrCs are designed so that they cannot be entered until at least 5th level. The minimum casting ability is simply the easiest mechanic to use in this case. If this requirement was not in place, there are cases where a PC could take this class much earlier (the shapechaning race from OA with a level of fighter could qualify at level 2, ECL 3).

But even being a natural shapeshifter, in order to take this class and further improve your innate ability... you have to be able to cast third level spells?

I see this as easily justifiable. Natural shapeshifters have generally limited abilities to do so. In order to improve their ability to do so, they need to tap into magical means. To progress their talents naturaly, they could do so by increasing their monster HD, not as a PrC.

 

[vulcan_idic]

As a general rule, PrCs are designed so that they cannot be entered until at least 5th level. The minimum casting ability is simply the easiest mechanic to use in this case. If this requirement was not in place, there are cases where a PC could take this class much earlier (the shapechaning race from OA with a level of fighter could qualify at level 2, ECL 3).



I see this as easily justifiable. Natural shapeshifters have generally limited abilities to do so. In order to improve their ability to do so, they need to tap into magical means. To progress their talents naturaly, they could do so by increasing their monster HD, not as a PrC.

I can understanding wanting to make sure they wait long enough, but on the other hand, the class in general has nothing to do with "spellcasting" per se... I think (recalling from memory) the Greater Wild Shape ability that is the class centerpiece is magical in nature... but is not "spellcasting". There are plenty of examples of classes having sugic magical, but non-spellcasting, abilities - monks being a prime example. Perhaps one could alter the requirement to be something like, "Ability to cast third level spells OR BAB+8(or something similar)" I selected BAB+8 to make sure fighter types wait long enough, and still give Druids first crack at it (which is how I think it was intended). Or perhaps there could be one of the "Special" requirements of something having to do with the shapeshifting requirement (i.e. having used it in a particular circumstance or something, thus unlocking the awareness of what lies beyond) which are lovely for flavor... I remember the special requirement for the Pyrokineticist (from PsiHB), by way of example, was something along the lines of, "Must have set a building on fire for the sole purpose of wanting to watch it burn." But to have the requirement to be able to cast spells for a class that has nothing to do with spell casting seems illogical, and generally against the design philosophy of 3.X to me.