Shifters and Templates

[Silver Griffon]

ie, If I came in as a 10th level Shifter character, and advanced a level, would my checks for previous familiarity be as an 11th level then?

Yes. It would always be your current level. However, a DM could decide to only allow these checks for a few levels, as its not fair to assume your character has a chance to know every form.

Also, let me explain why I think Wisdom based checks are more appropriate then Intelligence based checks. Because Knowledge(nature) is recalling facts and information. That's not the same as familiarity. Wisdom is more like insight or personal experience IMHO, and that sounds more like familiarity. For example, Knowledge(nature) is not used to determine if you are familiar enough with an animal's tracks to identify them. Wilderness Lore is.

But, to get back on topic, I think it makes sense to allow templated creatures as a shifter form if he is familiar with them. However, because of their rarity and power I would not allow a newly created Shifter to begin play knowing any templated forms. Even when using my random system. I might even decide that their HD for purposes of determining if the Shifter can take the form are equal to their templated HD (if the template increases them) or their HD plus CR increase (if the template increases CR but not HD), or whichever is higher if both cases are true. For example, a half-dragon's HD don't go up, but the die type increases. A half-dragon's CR is adjusted by +2. If a Shifter wanted to become a half-dragon stone giant (14HD), he would have to have 16HD.
Just a thought of the top of my head...

 

[Dwarmaj]

I banned Shifter all out, together with some other things. I think it's totally broken, even if the restictions about having fought it apply.

Are you also going to ban Shapechange? Once a Druid/Cleric(with animal domain)/Wiz/Sorc get Shapechange, they can pretty much do anything a shifter can do. And still have many other spells left. It gets even worse at epic levels, Persistant Shapechange. Or how about a Druid (with Natural Spell feat) that shapechanges into a Dire Bear, then casts Animal Growth and other "animal" only spells. Since Shapechange changes your type he'll have unbelievably high HP, BAB, saves.

Banning shifters isn't the solution. Limiting what they can turn into is.

 

[Planetouched]

believe me I think it is. Shapeshifting isn't overpowered since it's only very limited and he can only start shifting in powerfullbeings as higher levels...I think the shifter is overpowered and several other groops agreed with me on this. Well if you want to use it, fine with me. As the book says in the "what this book is" they are optional, not just plain things you should allow. I choose not to(well at least not this one). My party agrees, and even if they didn't they don't have that much to say about it, rule nr. 1

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'm with Dwarmaj that shape change (or worse still, the druid's epic wildshape feats) are far more "broken" than the shifter any day, which is to say that the latter PrC is perfectly reasonable, perhaps a little underpowered, even.

As for templated and advanced creatures: I think it's obvious (as drnuncheon's post makes clear) that the latter should be right out. I think that ruling that templated creatures are not average for their species is perfectly reasonable as well; the argument could go either way, but given that it CAN go either way, DM fiat counts for something here.

Even under the most liberal reading of the rules, the paragon template should be right out. Paragons are near-unique, perfect representations of their species. How "average" is that? The paragon represents the opposite of average, in many ways, and as such should be disallowed as an assumable form.

 

[Caliber]

That is a good point ruleslaywer.

A Half-Fiend Human would be a race all to himself, but a Paragon Human would be just a regular Joe Schmoe (with Super Powers)

I'd let a Shifter do the first, but not the second.