Should 4th ed be point and level based?

[JoeGKushner]

It's a far cry from point based at present, Joe, because a substitution level is a package! It relies on information a point-based system doesn't have - like what the other points are being spent on, and what type of character the PC already is.

D&D is a cross between classic class/level based and a menu-based system. It is not, however, point based.

Cheers!

Well, what in your definition is a far cry?

With Unearthed Arcana for example, we now have traits and flaws, the latter one of the key elements of min-maxing characters in point based systems and the former a quick way to customize a character.

This doesn't count third party resources that provide background options to characters so that regardless of their class they always have certain skills available to them.

 

[RangerWickett]

What we're seeing here are different tiers of gameplay, I feel.

Basic D&D is the classic "Four guys go into a dungeon" adventure, where you need different classes with different abilities to handle all the challenges. Generalists will get toasted -- you need specialists, and the dungeon (or whatever other quest is involved) is all that matters.

Non-traditional D&D wants to use the D&D ruleset for non-standard adventures, where class identity is not important.

I think it's possible to handle both.

 

[Psion]

Well, what in your definition is a far cry?

Well, you STILL don't have to build your character from scratch. You STILL can benefit from having a progression. You STILL, regardless of which substitution level you choose, divide your benefits from a new level between BAB, saves, hp, skill points, and class abilities.

It's still structured advancement, which is to me the thing that point buy is missing that makes me avoid point buy.

I like substitution levels. They bring in a good aspect of point buy system without bringing i the bad. But I still recognize that there are (AFAIAC) bad aspects to point buy systems that are worth avoiding. Let us not toss out the baby with the bathwater.

With Unearthed Arcana for example, we now have traits and flaws, the latter one of the key elements of min-maxing characters in point based systems and the former a quick way to customize a character.

Well, those are somewhat feat like in concept in that they are add ons to a character for whom most of the fundamentals have been determined by your class progression. That said, they do bring on board the concept of "point farming" from point buy system, another aspect of point buy systems I am happy to do without.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, you STILL don't have to build your character from scratch. You STILL can benefit from having a progression. You STILL, regardless of which substitution level you choose, divide your benefits from a new level between BAB, saves, hp, skill points, and class abilities.

But those things aren't necessarily good things as automatic advancement of bab, saves and hit points is one of the things that is usually under attack from people who want NPCs who are skilled at something but don't have lots of hit points or bab.

It's still structured advancement, which is to me the thing that point buy is missing that makes me avoid point buy.

I can agree with that. Point buy is time consuming. Templates and package deals are great ways to get things rolling though. I can see a level-point buy system with several example "classes" built to allow new players or time pressed players the get go right away.

I like substitution levels. They bring in a good aspect of point buy system without bringing i the bad. But I still recognize that there are (AFAIAC) bad aspects to point buy systems that are worth avoiding. Let us not toss out the baby with the bathwater.

But substutition levels are just one of the things that got me thinking about it. Why for example, do characters alone use hit dice based on class and everything else in the universe uses hit dice by type?

Well, those are somewhat feat like in concept in that they are add ons to a character for whom most of the fundamentals have been determined by your class progression. That said, they do bring on board the concept of "point farming" from point buy system, another aspect of point buy systems I am happy to do without.

I can agree with some of the negatives of "point farming" but at the same time, there are some very useful background elements that are "disadvantages" that D&D still doesn't have like the good old DNPC, Hunted, and psychological limitations. Not necessarily all good or a perfect fit for the D&D mentallity, but it would certainly add more discussion as to how to role play your character and design background elements that is currently in the 3.5 engine.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Eh... I'm already looking at getting out of running a 3.5 campaign and converting to HERO for this exact reason. I submit that there's a simple beauty to a level system, but under 3.5, with all of the options, I find myself bending more and more, and 'writing' less and less. My concerns generally revolve around how to keep things balanced, rather than simply designing encounters and executing plot.

I don't believe, though, that the core of D&D should change. It's built to be simple, that's the original intent. Basic math, 6 stats, some minor derivitive stuff which comes from the same core stat base, and a bunch of d20 rolls. That's the entire objective of the system, and in that, it succeeds admirably. I'm going to point buy because I'm frustrated by my players not doing what they want, how they want to do it, and when they can, they're too 'powerful' for the design of the campaign.

 

[MerricB]

Well, what in your definition is a far cry?

With Unearthed Arcana for example, we now have traits and flaws, the latter one of the key elements of min-maxing characters in point based systems and the former a quick way to customize a character.

Why is that a far cry? Because a flaw only gives access to a bonus feat. That's a limitation that point buy doesn't have. It's a huge difference.

This doesn't count third party resources that provide background options to characters so that regardless of their class they always have certain skills available to them.

There is a very good reason I avoid most 3rd party books like the plague.

Cheers!

 

[Aus_Snow]

There is a very good reason I avoid most 3rd party books like the plague.

Hm. . .

No, never mind.

 

[francisca]

Looking at the thread about Champions of Valor, they have organization substiution levels.

This sounds like a great mechanic, similiar to racial substiution levels.

However, at some point, the sheer wealth of options must crumble around itself.

Would D&D be better off using levels as a tool in terms of how many feats, hit points and skills you can have, and using points to buy those things?

I'm starting to think so....

No, enough "sacred cows" have been "slaughtered" already. Following your line of thinking and the game will be D&D in name only, even more than it is already.

But that's just one grognard's opinion.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

And the funny part is that in this thread as well as the "BAB as skill" thread, Rasyr has popped up to share with us that HARP kinda does what the thread topic asks. So why ask why D&D can't be more like HARP, and not simply play HARP instead? I'd wager that there's a game system out there for the majority of wishes somebody could have. No need to completely rebuild D&D to look more like some other game system, is there?

 

[MerricB]

Hm. . .

No, never mind.

..and it is, "lack of money".

Availability also comes into it. I have to specifically order d20 System books.

Here's the thing: I know that there are good d20 System books. (I am endlessly frustrated that my FLGS seems incapable of ordering Necromancer Games products). However, bad experiences with the d20 System books I have been able to get have made me extremely cautious about getting more.

If I lived in Melbourne, I'd have a better collection.

I tend to buy books from a particular publisher (rather than author) because I find the editing and development side of things is quite important.

Cheers!