D&D General Should a low level character know to burn a troll?

Should a low level character know to burn a troll?

  • Yes

    Votes: 86 78.9%
  • No

    Votes: 23 21.1%

Nagol

Unimportant
Ah, so, no, you have no comments on my post other than to continue to argue it should be dismissed out of hand. Since you're not the OP, I find it interesting that you've decided to engage in policing the thread for proper responses rather than discussing things. Does what I posted threaten you that much? That seems odd, I wouldn't expect it to do so.

No.

I'm going to take the charitable explanation that we arguing at cross purposes.

@lowkey13 presented 3 common models which have been used to answer the original question over the course of multiple editions. You suggested that in doing so, he introduced an assumption preventing a fourth model I'll paraphrase as "Of course, everyone at the table knows".

I merely pointed out that the assumption of some uncertainty is built into the original question. Indeed, even the default answer is assumed by the question. Contrast the original question with the logically identical but contextually opposite question of "Must a low level adventurer know to burn a troll?"

There is nothing wrong with using either always yes and always no in any particular game other than the question would not be asked at those games unless those asking wanted to introduce some uncertainty. The model required to answer the question becomes trivial.

My original answer to the question (way back on page 1) is it entirely depends on the campaign. I have used all 5 of the models I touch on in this post inside different D&D campaigns (depending on a mixture of tone, group composition, and starting circumstance) and even more when other RPGs are considered.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
No.

I'm going to take the charitable explanation that we arguing at cross purposes.

@lowkey13 presented 3 common models which have been used to answer the original question over the course of multiple editions. You suggested that in doing so, he introduced an assumption preventing a fourth model I'll paraphrase as "Of course, everyone at the table knows".

I merely pointed out that the assumption of some uncertainty is built into the original question. Indeed, even the default answer is assumed by the question. Contrast the original question with the logically identical but contextually opposite question of "Must a low level adventurer know to burn a troll?"
It is not. I can tell because it's not in the original question, and the OP has declined to add it, emphatically.

The question is "should a low-level character know to burn a troll?" The available answers are "Yes," and "No." Where is the uncertainty part of this question? The OP was queried on adding uncertainty, and declined to, rather emphatically. You're adding to the question in a way that cuts out my answer but leaves the ones you like. It's special pleading.
 

akr71

Hero
@Elfcrusher I should add that your comments & a good chunk of this thread has given me cause to consider how and why I ask for rolls and what I expect my players to know or not know. I am using it as fuel to grow as a DM.

As a player, I still enjoy playing that my new characters know very little except his small corner of the world.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
@Elfcrusher I should add that your comments & a good chunk of this thread has given me cause to consider how and why I ask for rolls and what I expect my players to know or not know. I am using it as fuel to grow as a DM.

I'm doing the same thing myself (c.f. all the threads about Goal and Approach.) Many of my posts here are about the play/DM style I aspire to, but I'm not a master at implementing it. Yet.

As a player, I still enjoy playing that my new characters know very little except his small corner of the world.

I do, too, but I like it when I actually don't know very much, as opposed to pretending to not know very much.
Some people use the term "immersion" to mean "staying in character." For example, pretending to not know about trolls and fire.

I use it to mean "feeling in character". For example, you, not just your character, being scared $%@^less because this thing is not dying and half your party is down and it looks like a TPK if you can't find something that hurts it. If you, the player, know that all you have to do is use a torch, this just isn't as scary.

And achieving that feel is up to the DM:
1) Describe creatures, don't use their names. That is, "Big ugly brute with warts" not "Troll".
2) Change things up: make your creatures look different, and/or change their abilities.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
It is not. I can tell because it's not in the original question, and the OP has declined to add it, emphatically.

The question is "should a low-level character know to burn a troll?" The available answers are "Yes," and "No." Where is the uncertainty part of this question? The OP was queried on adding uncertainty, and declined to, rather emphatically. You're adding to the question in a way that cuts out my answer but leaves the ones you like. It's special pleading.

No. One last attempt.

"Should a low-level character remember to breathe?" is a question that would appear for only a few campaign styles. It would not be asked in the grand majority of cases because in most campaigns it would be nonsensical.

In much the same way, "Should a low-level character know to burn a troll?" becomes nonsensical if the table has already determined the answer is "everyone does" or the answer is "no one does". Those tables do not require any model other than the answer "yes" or "no" in much the same way almost every table would not require anything but the answer of "no" to the first question. The model is trivial: there re no inputs that affect the output.

There is nothing wrong with your answer for campaigning. I merely pointed out assigning the assumption's insertion to lowkey13 was incorrect. For the question to have a non-trivial answer requires the questioner to be faced with uncertainty.

Lowkey13 presented 3 non-trivial models (as in there are inputs that affect outputs) previously commonly used for those tables where the answer was not globally predetermined. It matters not what the default answer is.

Again, there is nothing wrong with using a trivial model and predetermining global answers. There's nothing wrong with swapping the default answer and using a non-trivial model (though swapping the default answer typically accomplishes little from a modelling or logical perspective).
 

Inchoroi

Adventurer
My quick and dirty method: Make a Nature check. The DC is 10 + the monster's Challenge Rating. If you succeed, you get an interesting tidbit that might help you, and for every 5 over the DC, you get more information.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Who fights trolls?

The source for the D&D troll is Poul Anderson's novel Three Hearts and Three Lions. It's clear from the quote upthread that in the world of the novel, only knights do. Anderson is following in the style of the classical and medieval epics, where only nobles matter.

Americans generally aren't too keen on this notion, preferring a world of Jeffersonian yeoman farmers and Alger-esque barbarians who start off with nothing but a sword and a loincloth and rise to rule a kingdom.

So your answer to this question will depend partly on whether you're a Yank.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
I really think this is some kind of meta-forum test by Morrus to see if we would actually feed a troll if presented with one and I guess we know the answer! :D

Should a forum regular know not to feed a troll? Apparently, no.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
No. One last attempt.

"Should a low-level character remember to breathe?" is a question that would appear for only a few campaign styles. It would not be asked in the grand majority of cases because in most campaigns it would be nonsensical.

In much the same way, "Should a low-level character know to burn a troll?" becomes nonsensical if the table has already determined the answer is "everyone does" or the answer is "no one does". Those tables do not require any model other than the answer "yes" or "no" in much the same way almost every table would not require anything but the answer of "no" to the first question. The model is trivial: there re no inputs that affect the output.

There is nothing wrong with your answer for campaigning. I merely pointed out assigning the assumption's insertion to lowkey13 was incorrect. For the question to have a non-trivial answer requires the questioner to be faced with uncertainty.

Lowkey13 presented 3 non-trivial models (as in there are inputs that affect outputs) previously commonly used for those tables where the answer was not globally predetermined. It matters not what the default answer is.

Again, there is nothing wrong with using a trivial model and predetermining global answers. There's nothing wrong with swapping the default answer and using a non-trivial model (though swapping the default answer typically accomplishes little from a modelling or logical perspective).
Man, this is a pretzel. Okay, let's break it down.

The OP question is pretty straightforward. It asks a question, which you've quoted, that has no uncertainty component. It gives two possible answers, yes and no, neither of which have any uncertainty component. Yet, you're insisting that answers to this question are trivial absent an uncertainty component. And that "yes" answers fail this and also "no" answers fail this. So, since, due to your assumptions about what a valid question is, you've decided that only uncertain answers are valid, despite this not being in the OP. And, you've decided that you'll be the person to police answers you think fail this and tell them they're not good answers to the OP. Despite not being the OP, and the OP having explicitly declined to add any such requirements even when asked. So, let's be perfectly clear, this is you, not the OP question. Now that we have removed the shield of the OP, let's address your other points.

You state that a general question to a message board must have answers that have uncertainty, because non-uncertain answers are trivial. You say these answers are trivial because, in a game where they were true, no one in that game would bother to ask the question. I agree, however you've committed a pretty big category error here in that the question from the OP isn't asking me to to answer myself in my own game, but is instead polling all possible games. To which, a 'yes, always' answer is not trivial because it informs that such a game exists. So, that axis is flawed.

Finally, let's deal with the specific. You say @lowkey13's answers are good because they contain uncertainty. Mine is bad because it doesn't. However, this is a strawman of my argument you've presented. I clearly lay out in my post that the presumption should be that the PCs know, and that it's the DM's job to present that information in game. I do, however, note that if this is done and the PCs fail to engage it, then the lack of important knowledge in on them now, not the DM. I say this because I feel secret knowledge about encounters that PCs cannot discern is playing gotcha. I made these points in my post which started your argument that I had failed to answer the question. So, this line is flawed because it argues against a strawman of my post to establish a difference you're using to dismiss my post.

So, your entire argument is flawed. The OP makes no need for uncertainty in response. A "yes, always" response is not a trivial response to the question asked in the OP. And, you've strawmanned my argument to categorize it into your already flawed bin of "yes, always" in the face of a more nuanced point.
 


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