Should a Paladin be allowed to have ranks in Bluff?

[Gez]

Otherwise, any attempt to use the bluff skill is misleading and results in him losing paladin status. I can't wait to see the "do we need paladins?" thread.

Paladins are not allowed to ever lie or hide anything. They must always tell the blunt truth. They are not allowed to disguise, either. In fact, this is the very reason why they do not have spells like undetectable alignment on their spell list.

Oops, it seems they have.

To put it another way, Jedi are a bit Star Wars' paladin. They are a knightly order dedicated to upholding peace and justice throughout the galaxy.

Now, just imagine the famous Mos Esley scene.
Could you picture Ben Kenobi saying: "You don't need to see our ID. Those are the droids you are looking for, and we actually are outlaws you're ordered to shoot on sight" -- all this followed by a combat scene where he has to kill a thousand stormtroopers, provoking panic in the citizens, the destruction of a few buildings, and C3PO getting shot.

 

[hong]

Now, just imagine the famous Mos Esley scene.
Could you picture Ben Kenobi saying: "You don't need to see our ID. Those are the droids you are looking for, and we actually are outlaws you're ordered to shoot on sight" -- all this followed by a combat scene where he has to kill a thousand stormtroopers, provoking panic in the citizens, the destruction of a few buildings, and C3PO getting shot.

... so, are you saying paladins should or shouldn't get Bluff?

 

[irdeggman]

Paladins can certainly omit facts, keep silent or steer a discussion away from a topic they don't want the opposition to know.

Good point. Bluffing isn't always about saying something. Example Bluff in combat is a feint, Bluff while trying to avoid a subject by not saying anything is perfectly legitimate to me and works very well with an oppsed Sense Motive check.


IMO Bluff as a skill for paladins (per the PHB) is alright - it is the uses he makes of it that are restricted by his code.

 

[Aeric]

I don't see a problem with Paladins taking ranks in Bluff as a cross-class skill. If the Paladin has had the opportunity to develop the ability to Bluff, there's no reason whatsoever for him to be forbidden from putting points into the skill. It costs more than, say, Knowledge (Religion) or Ride, but that's because the latter two skills are integral to the Paladin's job and he has been trained extensively in them.

I do not think Bluff should be a class skill for Paladins any more than I think Use Rope should be a Paladin class skill--it's just not vital to the proscribed duties of the class. Sure, you can use Bluff to feint in combat, and if that were its primary use, I would say, "make it a class skill." But Bluff is primarily used to fool, misdirect, and otherwise lie to people, something which is dishonorable in most situations and not a tactic often used by Paladins. I don't think that Obscure Alignment should be on the Paladin's spell list, either.

Paladins are designed to be knights in shining armor, to ride on a white charger and challenge the biggest, baddest bad guys in one-on-one combat. If you want a character who serves his god through subterfuge and magic, I would suggest making a Rogue/Cleric instead.

 

[Mallus]

"These aren't the droids you're looking for." Ring a bell? That's was a blu... wait, no, that was coercive mind control. My bad...

So a Paladin can't use a little misdirection to save lives, protect the innocent, or strike a blow against evil?

Remember DM's, only you can make Paladins unplayable.

 

[Gez]

Hey, I got dibs on the droid scene!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Carrot directly lied in Men at Arms, near the end of the book. He is not a paladin.

The rules say paladins cannot lie. Until that rule is removed, paladins will always have to be lawful stupid, or maybe if the player is clever "Aes Sedai clones".

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Actually, I pretty much always viewed Jedi as paladins with a much less restrictive code on lying. I'd allow Jedi in my Star Wars game to lie through their teeth if they needed to.

Paladins I'd restrict to just misdirection, no actual lying.

So, the in same droid scene, I'd see the paladin saying something like "Look, we are in a hurry. We aren't doing anything wrong, please just let us go." All of which is perfectly true from the paladins point of view, he wasn't doing anything wrong. If he outright lied and said "These aren't the droids you are looking for", I'd have to say that's too far. Even if he said "We are representatives of Senator Leir Organa and are on a mission of the utmost importance, we don't have time to stop." I'd allow it.

Yes, I'm no the side of making Paladins fairly strict with their codes. I'm into making them innovative with their truths rather than just allowing them to lie. Even in these cases where they are forced to "evade the truth", paladins will feel bad about their methods, but won't lose their powers. They'd much prefer to kill the evil people and be done with it.

 

[Mallus]

Hey, I got dibs on the droid scene!

Oops... sorry. Somehow I missed your post this morning. I was checking ENWorld pre-coffee...

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Of course a paladin can Bluff. Don't tell the bad guys, but that whole "Paladins do not lie" thing is just PR given out by the Society for the Advancement of Paladins (SAPs). There are times where a good lie will result in good far outweighed by the "transgression" of lying.

BBEG to captured paladin: "Tell me where the chalice is."

Paladin: "No I will tell you nothing!"

BBEG: "Well, I'll tell you what I think. The chalice was given to the Abbott in that little village you passed through. I guess my forces will have to raze the village and dig through the rubble to find it."

Paladin: [Hangs head in defeat - rolls Bluff check] "No, there is no need. The chalice was sent to the Bishopric in Skola for protection."

BBEG: "Well, since according to your little Code, you cannot lie, then you must be telling the truth. We cannot storm Skola, we would be destroyed. We will have to find another way..."

Paladin buys time for escape and destruction of BBEGs forces.