Should Clerics and Druids Be Vancian?

[TerraDave]

...A cleric focused on divinations is very different from one focused on combat. It's a significant balance factor because unlike wizards, clerics had a ridiculous variety of spells to choose from every day. Taking away that versatility reduces the CODzilla factor a bit. There's also more of a sense of casting in real time. It seems strange that a cleric can't pray when he needs something right now.

...

This gets to a key issue. Pre 4E, clerics "knew" all there spells, which greatly vary in power, so preparation was a key balancing tool.

If you want an alternate, then no, they shouldn't know everything. And all those issues 4E tried to address...combat attack versus combat utility, versus non-combat, and how you balance them come to the for.

I don't a system were half the spells are never used, and clerics can just spam hold person, say.

 

[Sadras]

I will be honest in that I do not understand the dislike towards the Vancian System.
Yes its one part of the historical core mechanic of the game. and yes it was utilised primarily for the balancing of classes. Did it fail, I don't believe so. However it like everything else in the PHB was a guideline. Nothing WotC is ever gonna produce (as an entire system) is gonna satisfy, not even one of us, completely, 100%.

I believe the Vancian System should stay for most, if not all, Spell Casting classes, inclusive of Druids and Clerics, for a number of reasons:
1. Sacred Cow (this is supposed to be the D&D which will somehow unite us, by
embracing most of our play-styles, for that reason alone it must stay).
2. Balancing of Classes (say what you will, it is a form of balancing,
perhaps the spells or other mechanics were not, but it is a form of balancing.
Please unerstand I'm not saying that other balancing techniques should not be
used in conjunction with the Vancian System.)


I propose the Vancian System acts as a guideline into how many "magicks" you can tap into on a given day before a sort of taxing occurs...

For instance in the Dragonlance novels fatigue would often affect Raistlin when he cast his spells... (I am aware he was also sickly, but bear with me). Perhaps a Wizard casting spells could get away safely casting the alloted spells per day, anymore and he would feel its affects either in that it would physically drain him, perhaps spells could go awry if he channeled to much magic, he would basically burnt out...etc [insert any other creative idea]. That way yes a Wizard has unlimited spells with a Vancian System as long as he could withstand the increasing physical tax. In addition the Vancian System could be utilised alongside the Ritual (I prefer the word Incantation) System providing a greater number of spells for the Wizard. Granted the Ritual System requires reworking, subject for another time.

The Sorcerer could too have the same system applied - but perhaps would have a higher threshold to the physical drain due to his bloodline...just an idea.

The Druid would call the powers of natures' spirits, but the more he called on them, the greater he risked effects upon his own body, wracking it - perhaps gaining animalistic, plant or elemental like features (similar to Gangrels in Vampire White Wolf). Perhaps as he called on the power of the storms, in excess of his allotment, his voice would take on a thunderous undertone, or should he have channelled an animal like power/spell he would permanently take on an animalistic feature - his nose would become more crooked, his one eye would take on a feline look...etc Permanent physcial taxes for drawing on too much power/magic (i.e. above the safe allotment as per the Vancian tables).

Clerics channel divine power. What do you think would happen if you kept on requesting and making demands on your god continuously?...Perhaps the safety net for channeling divine energies might be removed and though your spell/power might work - you would take damage from the raw divine magic coursing through your body. So perhaps a damage tax, perhaps burning surges, scars appear along your body, your nose, eyes and ears would start bleeding, perhaps if you drew on too much power your could go blind for a round or two...etc

These taxes could be interchangeable amongst classes, whatever suits your needs for your idea regarding the excess magic drawn upon. the 'magic tax' could be related to the power/spell drawn upon. It would also provide an avenue for some amazing DM creativity.

This system should appease both Vancian and non-Vancian spell casters....as you, a spell caster, draw closer to your spell allotment for the day you could feel it/sense that your drawing towards the limits of your capabilities and anything more could spell trouble....depending on how strict/lenient your DM is

It just one idea for appeasing both camps and giving the DM some great "creative control".

I mean imagine playing a Wizard who has a disfigured hand caused by drawing on too much magic in his youth, or a Druid who is barely recognisable as to what race he is and has slowly started to lose his senses allowing animalistic instincts to begin taking over, a Cleric who lost the power of speech (unable to heal) from channelling vast amounts of Divine energies, or a Sorcerer who radiates intense heat everytime she casts spells, making it impossible for her to wear leather armour due to the heat and where her waterskin, if carried by her, boils when she casts spells.


Obviously this 'tax' system could be one of the advanced modules available and not part of the core as it does require DM and players to execise caution and care so as not to cause problems at the table - but this system has and does work in Vampire the Masquerade.

Lets throw the DM something awesome to work with, allow the playstyle of the players to dictate the power hungry nature of their characters, but know there are consecquences when drawing on too much magic and lets have fun.

 

[Ahnehnois]

This gets to a key issue. Pre 4E, clerics "knew" all there spells, which greatly vary in power, so preparation was a key balancing tool.

If you want an alternate, then no, they shouldn't know everything. And all those issues 4E tried to address...combat attack versus combat utility, versus non-combat, and how you balance them come to the for.

I don't a system were half the spells are never used, and clerics can just spam hold person, say.

Imbalance between individual spells can be a problem. Hold person could be an example, though I think most casters are unwilling to waste a turn on an effect that usually fails. That said, I don't think it's a huge problem. A good cleric player has a strong concept and picks spells that fit it. Before clerics could be good at anything, with spontaneous casting they can be good at any one thing.

I don't mind it if some spells are preferred over others, really. The same thing happens with sorcerers. I think the idea that some clerics can be total noncombatants is a huge improvement given the way holy men are usually portrayed. I think that the idea that players who don't like healing don't have to do it is a huge improvement.

If anyone could come up with a more flexible "on-the-fly" system while maintaining balance, I think it'd be even better.

 

[KidSnide]

I think there should be a Vancian option for clerics and druids, just as I think there should be a (more compelling, IMO) Vancian option for wizards.

For all casters, I don't think Vancian should be the default option for the simple reason that it requires mastery of a longer list of spells/powers/abilities than the player needs for any given session and makes it very difficult to create a character sheet with "everything you might need." I don't think the idea of Vancian magic is hard to understand (even though it's hard to understand why that's how the world works). But it requires a level of rules mastery best suited for an optional add-on.

For clerics and druids, Vancian magic has the additional disadvantage that it makes even less sense in the gameworld fiction than it does for wizards, at least IMO. But that's ultimately a matter of taste, and it's clear that a substantial enough portion of the D&D community likes the taste of Vancian magic that it needs to be supported in a "universal" edition. However WotC figures out how to do this for wizards, that system should be available for clerics and druids too.

-KS

 

[the Jester]

Both should have Vancian options as well as non-Vancian options.

 

[Li Shenron]

I want vancian clerics in the core game, as I practically prefer all casters to be vancian.

But I'm fine with variants where the cleric and druid still have spells slots but cast spontaneously, like it was proposed in 3ed Unearthed Arcana (essentially a Sorcerer-like version of the divine casters).

BTW, what I really want is a cleric (and a druid) that does not automatically know every spell of its class.

 

[paladinm]

I have never really like Vancian magic, even back in the OD&D/ 1e days. The idea that a caster would "forget" a spell after it is cast just seems silly. It makes much more sense to me to have all mages function like sorcerers. When you run out of spell points/slots/whatever, you're done. It might be interesting to add the ability to convert a spell to some sort of warlockish magic blast, kind of like clerics can convert spells to healing.

For divine casters, I would used the same general model, but open it up even more. Instead of limiting clerics to prepared/ memorized spells, I would say they can cast any spell that would be available from their level/sphere/deity. The reason for this is that clerical spells are answers to prayer; and prayers are not prepared, they are offered at the time of need. Divine casters have more flexibility, but I don't think this unbalances them.

 

[Tallifer]

This poll is quite useless: the choices are completely insufficient.

Do you consider Fourth Edition Vancian or not? I think it is very much Vancian: clerics and druids have Daily Prayers and many items have Daily Uses.

Or do you mean exclusively Vancian?

I prefer Fourth Edition's divine magic: the Prayers of different availability and the Rituals. But I could live with AD&D too. Hopefully we will get both.

 

[Aramax]

I voted yes but something like spontanius casting is a must

 

[Incenjucar]

It's all about the options.

Vancian works well whenever you have stored a piece of something concrete and specific, like a ritual scroll, or a globe of hellfire granted to you by a fiend, but that is not always appropriate. Another situation may call on personal sacrifice, which power points better represent. Other situations may work best with always-available, spammable abilities, but with less dramatic oomph, but little risk of running out. Indeed, sometimes a mix is appropriate.

A cleric that functions like the 4E psion would make a LOT of sense. Their at-wills are basic lingering divine energy they can channel constantly. Their power points are them calling for extra power from their deity, as dictated by their needs. Their daily powers are specific pieces of divine magic they gathered before combat, via rituals.