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Should Epic Be In PH1?

Pretty much this... but my delineation would be:

1-5: Adventurer Tier
6-15: Heroic Tier
16-25: Paragon Tier
26-30: Epic Tier

Kind of like this idea, though I'd make designations slightly different:

A1-A5: Apprentice tier.
H1-H10: Heroic Tier
P1-P10: Paragon Tier.
E1-E5: Epic tier.

H1 is where most campaigns would start, unless one was inclined to play through apprenticeship.

This would allow different pacing for the different tiers. A1-A5 could be paced with the intention that you will get only marginally better at each step, and basically each session could be a small task, at the end of which characters would level. E1-E5 would have greater impact power changes between levels, with the assumption that each level would be basically a full adventure to its conclusion.

As for epic being in 5ePHB1, I don't really care one way or the other. But if they have space issues and need to cut something, and they are trying to decide between two classes and two races, or the epic tier, I'd rather keep the extra classes and races.
 

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Epic should be core and should be part of the game. Otherwise it never gets supported. 3e Epic was a lame add-on that never worked quite right. 4e epic sort of worked, but it was mostly heroic tier style skirmishes with bigger numbers. Instead of fighting 4 orcs, you fight 4 demons. Thats not what I want in epic.

Epic needs to be different. It needs to be big and vast in scale and scope. It should involve immortals wrangling over worshippers across the world, conquering planes, managing empires, armies clashing and so on. Thats the kind of stuff we did in our "epic" 1e games. It should be about leading an army to stop Orcus from overrunning the planet with endless hordes of undead.
Y'know, I'm fine with epic never being supported well (since it pretty much wasn't supported at all pre-3e, it would hardly be new for D&D). Most campaigns die out before level 10, let alone level 20. And it's perfectly reasonable that they do; at some point in the years it takes to reach epic from level 1, it's extremely likely that real life is going to blow up the group or someone else will want to DM or you'll want to try a new gaming system or try a new setting or the campaign will just reach a logical end point.
 

Epic play should be a really different play experience. It should be a game of broad geopolitical/cosmic strategy. What does that sound like? The backstory for Magic Cards! Here is the opportunity for integration. Epic characters as Planeswalkers or the equivalent. Epic scenarios and epic abilities should be on a broad scale appropriate for leading armies (if you are a fighter) or summoning them (If you are a wizard)

I'd just like to point that this sounds great. A couple of years ago I GMed a game that went on a similar premise, although we didn't use D&D, but a homebrew system. While the current vision of a planeswalker in MtG didn't exist at that point, characters in that game would translate very well.

I'm totally in favor of a D&D epic tier where characters are the equivalent of MtG planeswalkers. But not in the core rules. :)

Cheers,
 

There are lots of things I consider part of D&D, but epic level falls low on the list of what I want in the initial core rulebook. To make it accessible, the page count needs to be kept under control, so I'd be very willing to postpone epic level support from day 1 in favour of:

* multi-classing
* vehicles & mounts
* skill challenges
* exploration rules (survival days, etc.)
* social combat
* stealthy combat (more of a DM encounter design thing, I suppose)
* rituals (covering any > 1 round action for all types of classes)
* 3-d combat (underwater & flight)

As some have posted above, a 10 or 15 level initial offering would suit me very well for more than one campaign.
 

Like many people I have rarely gone beyond about 10th, IIRC 14 or 15th was the highest I have ever achieved (in 1E or 2E, cannot remember)

Epic is a supplement and should not be in core IMO. Paizo APs end at 16 for a reason!
 

Just throwing in my two coppers, but I would like to see epic or high level or whatever you want to call it. In first we had characters at like 10th level or so, 2nd 11-12ish, 3rd 28-30ish, and 4th we're all sitting at 22nd at the moment. It's been fun to see high level experiences, but one thing I miss in 4th edition is that I don't really feel as challenged I think is the word I'm looking for. It's just 4-5 whatevers that we fight. In previous editions we might have fought legions of demons, now it's party level plus maybe some 1 hp minions. I'd like some rules that kind of capture the scope and feel of epic level play. You aren't just a fighter, you're the man who holds the pass single handedly against an army. You're no longer just an average cleric, you are a prophet of your god, an archmage that can bend time and space to her will, or not just a not a simple rogue, you are the gd batman. :p
 

...not just a not a simple rogue, you are the gd batman. :p

Oi! I'll thank you to remember that being the goddamn Batman is wizard turf. Those 4E martial classes, wanting to do interesting and useful things when everybody knows that's a spellcaster's job... :)
 

Epic should be done right when it's done, and it should be different from normal play. Wait on it. Get 1-20 done right in the core, then put a team to work planning out and building epic as a later book for the small fraction of groups who start there/get there.
 

Epic should be done right when it's done, and it should be different from normal play. Wait on it. Get 1-20 done right in the core, then put a team to work planning out and building epic as a later book for the small fraction of groups who start there/get there.
I have no problem with this as long as they PLAN for what Epic play will be like while designing the core. It can't be tacked on afterwards. It has to be considered, at least.

I would say have a downloadable, barebones-playtest module available soon after the core books are released. Give it to us and let us rip it apart. That's what open playtests are for.

I'd also want a barebones-playtest module for psionics within the first six months.
 

I'm not sure there should be an "epic" tier in the sense of a bunch of levels that are designated for doing epic things. Several people have said they want epic to change the feel of the game, but I'd bet there are plenty of people who just want the numbers to go up, or are at least indifferent to that change in feel.

After some thought I've had a crazy idea. What if, just as characters choose a class, background, theme, etc., campaigns (optionally) did so as well? Let's call them campaign themes for the moment.

What if the party as a whole "leveled up" in ways determined by the campaign's actual events, but mediated by a campaign theme? The party as an entity could have resources, and the kinds of resources that are made available could depend on the campaign's theme. A campaign where the PCs aspire only to become rich would develop in a much different direction than one where they aspire to be heads of nations, or slayers of gods. In this case, running an epic game is a matter of selecting a campaign theme so that the party naturally develops epic-feeling interactions.

Although most aspects of a campaign theme would probably not affect individual character advancement, I think there is room for this as well. For example, if a campaign is forming a kingdom from the wild, it is often the case that one of the PCs will be king. Well, maybe this campaign theme offers kingly character abilities that the king could take to support this kind of play. This probably isn't raw personal power, but in a kingdom game it may let him call upon his strategic resources (like an order of knights) in a way that affects a tactical situation more powerfully than usual. Likewise, a character playing a general in a campaign with mass battles could gain character abilities to interact with the mass battle mechanics. But if one of the PCs is the king's loyal servant and protector, he could still choose to concentrate only on tactical combat. The key is that the campaign theme should give ways for everyone to contribute to the larger picture, but let characters embrace it to different degrees. It should also be "balanced", in the sense that any changes in power will tend to affect the whole party moreso than any single member.

OK, so how does this affect the introduction of "epic" play? I think the best thing might be to introduce campaign themes in the core books, detailed mostly in the DMG. The themes in the core books would be tightly focused on dungeon crawling, urban intrigue, and similar things that don't demand introducing huge amounts of supporting material but still speak to D&D's traditions. I might dedicate a chapter to them, with 3 or 4 light themes. The first goal is to make sure they are mechanically integrated with the core game, so if the PHB contains 20 levels then both dungeon crawling and kingdom building campaigns run from 1-20. The second goal is to make sure the concept gains mindshare from players and DMs.

After that, one could introduce new campaign themes in lots of places, like additional DMGs. Campaign settings and APs would be ideal. It's practically an invitation to reintroduce Birthright without making any changes to the core game. Heck, even a new Stronghold Builder's Guide would have a place, for those who want to gain and run a keep. I think there could be room for a dedicated book of Epic Campaigns with all the mass battles, god slayings, and kingdom-runnings one could want. And unlike a traditional epic level handbook this is one a DM might be able to use from level 1. That along could raise interest in it beyond what an ELH normally gets.

The idea of campaign themes has some obvious weaknesses, but I'm not sure if they're deadly. The biggest one is probably that campaigns often develop organically, so a theme isn't obvious. Second, themes can and do change. Third, a theme shouldn't *prevent* a game from changing directions. Finally, all of this requires some serious player buy-in.

Assuming campaign themes are used, I think the main thing is to make sure they are fluid. That is, they mesh well from one to another. Perhaps they can be retrained, or every "party level" is associated with some theme, but these change with the story like 3e multiclassing. For example, an epic campaign theme isn't necessarily appropriate until the characters control some land. In that case, in a zero-to-hero setting the first campaign theme might be acquiring a keep, at which point things smoothly switch to more epic concerns. In a different game one or more PCs might be aristocratic and have this from first level already. In other words, themes change when goals or story conditions are met that somehow change the stake or scales of the game. This could work in cool directions: perhaps a campaign starts with the prince inheriting his kingdom, but in the course of play he and his court are deposed. At this point the kingdom-running theme falls to the side, but he goes adventuring with his most loyal companions for the relic which could return him to power. While in possession of the relic it makes them aware of a cosmic threat, so when he is restored to his throne they turn their attention to this new threat.

If something like campaign themes were implemented, it's clear to me that the worst case scenario would be something like 4e skill challenges. That is, the system doesn't quite cohere but the rest of the game can ignore it just fine. As with most failed systems, DMs will just grab the elements they like and keep on trucking.

Alright, I've got to stop writing. I'm interested to hear what you think. Cheers.
 
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