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4E Should I play 4e?

This shouldn't be too hard.

"I want to design a car that works great for a lot of things. Not just driving fast, or looking good, or gas mileage, or any one thing. I want a vehicle that is functional for all things. It's pretty good at stuff, and carries stuff too. "
That's a /different/ intended range of uses.

It's more like reliability. Say a car is expected to run for 100k miles. One car, runs, with ordinary maintenance, 100k miles, no problem. Another, tends to break down frequently from the moment you drive it off the lot until it's had a little repair work and breaking-in, then it runs great, with ordinary maintenance, from 10-60k miles, then it starts breaking down again.
Now, if you happen to LOVE working on cars, you make like that, a lot. Tuning & fixating it up just so in those early miles, and lovingly keeping it running later on.

But you can't claim it doesn't break down, or that the other, boring, hateful, never-get-to-work-on it mockery of a real car isn't "more reliable."
 

Imaro

Adventurer
Sure! I'll give you one example that comes to mind right off the top of my head.

Simulacurum - This spell allows the wizard to literally make another fighter and use that fighter in combat. There is nothing a fighter can do that is even remotely as powerful.

That said, 5e is less egregious than editions prior to 4e in terms of LFQW. But it WAS brought back, and is much more prevelant than it was in 4e.
How is this any different that the Wizards in 4e summoning say a fire warrior at 1st level or a Hammerfist Crusher at 10th to fight for them? What do 4e fighters do that is even as remotely powerful at those levels? this was my point earlier with the utilities. Yeah they gave the fighter more moves to use in combat (for the most part) but his actual versatility and power still wasn't anywhere near a wizard.
 
How is this any different that the Wizards in 4e summoning say a fire warrior at 1st level or a Hammerfist Crusher at 10th to fight for them?
Wow, were to start. Simulacra have half the hps and all the abilities, even casting, of the original creature - they don't regain slots or gain levels, but otherwise they exist until killed or dispelled, they can even be 'repaired' - one could even impersonate the original. They act on the caster's turn and are essentially allies & obey him, but they otherwise take a full slate of actions, and can act on orders independently when separated from the caster.
4e summons typically have hps closer to the caster's surge or less (unless the caster spends a surge to give them more) and either use the caster's action, or have a single default action of their own if not 'commanded' (in some cases, with a consequence to the caster for leaving them uncontrolled) - they last, at most, only a single encounter, if they're not reduced to 0 hps.


What do 4e fighters do that is even as remotely powerful at those levels?
Combat Challenge/Superiority stacks up pretty favorably to 4e summoning, which was decidedly limited by the tight action economy. A summon can act as a low-grade blocker (one of a few ways the controller & defender roles slightly overlap), for instance, but isn't doing a fraction in that role of what a defender class PC could do.

this was my point earlier with the utilities. Yeah they gave the fighter more moves to use in combat (for the most part) but his actual versatility and power still wasn't anywhere near a wizard.
Much closer than in any other edition, and without the LFQW effect on top of it.
 
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Imaro

Adventurer
Wow, were to start. Simulacra have half the hps and all the abilities, even casting, of the original creature - they don't regain slots or gain levels, but otherwise they exist until killed or dispelled, they can even be 'repaired' - one could even impersonate the original. They act on the caster's turn and are essentially allies & obey him, but they otherwise take a full slate of actions, and can act on orders independently when separated from the caster.

4e summons typically have hps closer to the caster's surge or less (unless the caster spends a surge to give them more) and either use the caster's action, or have a single default action of their own if not 'commanded' (in some cases, with a consequence to the caster for leaving them uncontrolled) - they last, at most, only a single encounter, if they're not reduced to 0 hps.
4e summons typically have half (bloodied value) the hit points of the summoner... many also offer the wizard other advantages like the Summon Shadow Serpent power (2nd level) where the wizard can also see through it's eyes and use it as a spy. Or the Fire Warrior who can also make opportunity attacks when commanded to do so, or the spectral hound that gives you +5 to Perception and can be sustained with a minor action...

As for Simulacra it takes 12 hours to cast requires enough snow or ice to make a life size replica of the creature, pieces of said creatures body to insert in said ice or snow, and a 1500gp ruby. The simulacra has no equipment so you better have the components of those spells you want it to cast or the weapons and armor for it to fight. For the 4e summons you need...nothing absolutely nothing and you can perform it over and over again daily (or if it's an encounter power, personally not sure if there are any, every encounter).

Combat Challenge/Superiority stacks up pretty favorably to 4e summoning, which was decidedly limited by the tight action economy. A summon can act as a low-grade blocker (one of a few ways the controller & defender roles slightly overlap), for instance, but isn't doing a fraction in that role of what a defender class PC could do.
Is there a way to use my Combat Challenge/Superiority as a spy? Didn't think so.

Much closer than in any other edition, and without the LFQW effect on top of it.
Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it true.
 
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lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
That's a /different/ intended range of uses.

It's more like reliability. Say a car is expected to run for 100k miles. One car, runs, with ordinary maintenance, 100k miles, no problem. Another, tends to break down frequently from the moment you drive it off the lot until it's had a little repair work and breaking-in, then it runs great, with ordinary maintenance, from 10-60k miles, then it starts breaking down again.
Now, if you happen to LOVE working on cars, you make like that, a lot. Tuning & fixating it up just so in those early miles, and lovingly keeping it running later on.

But you can't claim it doesn't break down, or that the other, boring, hateful, never-get-to-work-on it mockery of a real car isn't "more reliable."
Well, more reliable is an objective statement (usually). You can give it a metric, and then say something is, or isn't, more reliable. Not "better." Not even "better designed." Because design incorporate other elements- and designing for reliability might get rid of other aspects that you do appreciate.

Or you might just not care about reliability in comparison to other things.

There's an even easier way to look at this:

A: I like the outdoors.

B: Do you like forest fires?

A: I don't like forest fires.

B: Great! I paved over the forest for you.

A: .....


If you identify the "problem" in need of solution as "forest fires," then you can solve it easily- pave over the forest.

No forest, no fires. However, some might say that in order to have forest fires, you need a forest, and if you like forests, you're going to have the occasional forest fire (cue "Circle of Life").

I think the disconnect you have is that you see other people making subjective claims, but you don't realize that you are making them as well.
 
Well, more reliable is an objective statement (usually). You can give it a metric, and then say something is, or isn't, more reliable. Not "better." Not even "better designed."
You could certainly say "better reliability" or, really, "better" a lot of other things, like "designed," because reliability /is/ a pretty standard design goal. What good is something that doesn't work, afterall?

Because design incorporate other elements- and designing for reliability might get rid of other aspects that you do appreciate.
Sure, like frequent opportunities to work on it!

Or you might just not care about reliability in comparison to other things.
Right, you may have a back-up vehicle on call at a moment's notice, for instance. Or the car might be a showpiece.

But none of those make the more reliable car less reliable, or the unreliable one more so. The difference is real, and the reliable one is better by that metric.

There are /plenty/ of quite objective metrics about cars, after. That reliable car might be an electric golf cart that goes 10mph at most, and the unreliable one a muscle car that can do 120 easy. Or the unreliable one might be an old model T that can barely hold together doing 45, and the reliable one a tesla roadster that can out-accelerate the muscle car.

As much as someone defending an unreliable vehicle might like to suggest that it's positive qualities are somehow intertwined with it's defects, that's not necessarily the case (it might be, but it needn't always be so for everything it's compared to).

edit: nope, not going to respond to the personal stuff

4e summons typically have half (bloodied value) the hit points of the summoner...
Hey! You looked something up, congratulations. I just looked up Simulacrum (and, damn, no wonder people have been going on about it being broken). But, yeah, a lot of them... now that I think of it, most that were actual class dailies ... I've gotten used to the latter because I've not had a dedicated summoner in my long-running campaign for quite a while, but have a number of weaker item or theme powers that do lesser summons, often requiring that surge to have significant hps.

Of course, the wizard had the lowest hps of any class, while Simulacrum might be used on a creature with many more hps than the caster (5e does have remarkable high hps at the level you get simulacrum), and the simulacrum lasts indefinitely vs at most one encounter.

many also offer the wizard other advantages like the Summon Shadow Serpent power (2nd level) where the wizard can also see through it's eyes and use it as a spy. Or the Fire Warrior who can also make opportunity attacks when commanded to do so, or the spectral hound that gives you +5 to Perception and can be sustained with a minor action...
Sure, your summon might make an OA using your OA action and/or an attack using your standard action, or even give you some bonus... "can be sustained with a minor action" btw, is a limitation, not a selling point, it's like Concentration, that way, but it keeps you from using that minor action for anything else, every round...

4e summons were tightly phrased to maintain the action economy in the interest of balance, which was a profound limitation compared to most other eds, and especially compared to Simulacrum...

As for Simulacra it takes 12 hours to cast requires enough snow or ice to make a life size replica of the creature, pieces of said creatures body to insert in said ice or snow, and a 1500gp ruby. The simulacra has no equipment so you better have the components of those spells you want it to cast or the weapons and armor for it to fight.
Big deal. Equipment isn't exactly prohibitively expensive for high level wizards, and you can make it as far in advance as you want, since it's not going to just go poof or turn on you or anything.

For the 4e summons you need...nothing absolutely nothing and you can perform it over and over again daily (or if it's an encounter power, personally not sure if there are any, every encounter).
I can't recall an encounter summon, either, probably deemed too much on some level... encounter powers rarely had durations beyond end-of-next turn, so you might summon something that lasted for 6 seconds or so, if such a power were to exist at all. And, I mean, yeah, you can have that 4e summon, in one of your encounters, each day - a dedicated summoner might have one available in as many as 4 encounters, by using all his dailies on 4 different summon spells.
As opposed to the simulacrum in all of them, and doing whatever else you need outside of combat, while using /all/ your slots for whatever else you wanted.
 
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