Should Level Top Out?

In 1e, not only monks and assassins had caps, but druids (raised in Unearthed Arcana) and bards as well.

The to-hit and saving-throw tables also topped out, and there was (unlike in OD&D) no suggestion that spell-casting ability (in terms of number prepared) could improve beyond the listed levels. Those limits helped to make the classes with hard caps, and non-humans, competitive longer (although by design not in perpetuity).

When the only built-in difference between a 30th-level character and a 100th-level one is a lot of hit points (and probably more spells in a magic-user's grimoire), I think the other game parameters are less likely to get out of whack. That makes a hard "ultimate limit" perhaps even theoretically unnecessary.

In practical terms, if it takes about a year to get a character to "name" level, and only a couple more levels per (real-life) year are added thereafter, then one might attain something between 25th and 30th level after a decade of play.

Even before considering level drains, that's beyond anything I have ever experienced.

In Legends and Lore (Deities and Demigods, less the Lovecraft and Moorcock), Babylonian Girru casts fire spells as if 40th level. At least a couple of other deities (Odin being one) have 30th level in a class or two. Otherwise, I think 25th (e.g., Zeus) is high among the gods. Asmodeus and Demogorgon (in the Monster Manual) have hit points equivalent to 44 monster hit dice. One might take that sort of thing into account when considering what's reasonable. Should a PC be allowed to exceed Odin (or whatever may be the equivalent in your campaign), and if so then by how much?

With 3E and 4E, much more rapid advancement seems the assumption, yet at the same time it looks to me as if 30th level might be stretching the game system's ease of playability. If one wants to play characters longer, then slowing the attainment of levels up to a manageable maximum might be better than extending beyond that point.
 
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it will then be only bigger numbers vs. bigger numbers.

If it is indeed balanced, level 10 vs level 10 foes and level 100 vs level 100 enemies will be ... just be the same thing with some zeroes added to each important number.

You are completely correct, and personally I'm a proponent of getting rid of the half-level bonus entirely.

Worth noting, though, that a level n group rarely faces exclusively level n enemies, so the bonus actually does affect things.
 

Back in the day, pcs topped out at 36th level (or considerably lower, in earlier editions). In AD&D, there was no level limit, nor was there one in 3.x. Now, in 4e, pcs top out at level 30.

What do you think about this? Should there be a "Top Level" that a pc can achieve? If so, what level should it be? If not, should the rate of advancement slow down as pcs get higher level? Or should it stay the same, or even speed up?

I really like Ryan Stoughton's solution (for 3.x) of capping levels at 6th and then only advancing by feats and treasure. See my sig for a link to Epic Sixth. As far as I'm concerned, Epic Sixth is a wonderful solution. A level cap that allows for aditional character advancement in a non-level-dependent way.

I could even see capping levels in AD&D to sixth or ninth. The AD&D Dragonlance campaign hardback capped level advancement at 18th and that was plenty high for AD&D.

PC's, in my opinion, ought not be able to take on the likes of Odin or Thor. At least, not without an amazing story behind their ascent.
 

Hrothgar, that reminds me of playing with just the original Basic D&D book, which topped out at 3rd level but included some mighty monsters. The lack of spells such as fire ball, combined with the human vulnerability of characters (Maximum possible HP of 33 seemed close enough to Conan!) made for a sense of things closer to classic mythology, fairy tales (such as the Thousand Nights and a Night) and heroic-fantasy fiction.

Even at those levels, Holmes allowed magic users to make scrolls, and they could create new spells as well.

Once characters attained 3rd level (quite a challenge in itself), they could still add to their capabilities by way of artifacts, creatures, followers, and special gifts acquired in the course of adventures. It was not necessary to have hordes of giants, as just one was plenty fearsome!

So, what resulted was less a sort of walk along familiar paths of character development than usual in D&D. Everything was more particular to that unfolding story. More elements (magic in particular) were made up because they could not just be looked up in the book -- and because they were actual goals (or challenges along the way) of quests rather than just means to (or products of) "leveling up".
 
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Back in the day my 1e AD&D game was uncapped; a PC (Thrin) reached 117th, and I had a 514th level NPC.

These days I like the cap; I think 4e's 30th level has it right.
 

Just for the record...

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons-Adventures-Bloodstone/dp/088038560X]Amazon.com: Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Forgotten Realms: Official Game Adventures: The Throne of Bloodstone [For Character Levels 18-100]: Douglas Niles, Michael Dobson: Books[/ame]

Not TSR's best work, IMHO.
 

Hey all! :)

When 3rd Edition delivered theoretical infinite level progression I thought that was the way forward for epic/immortal gaming. However, after many years I now see the fundamental flaws in allowing unlimited progression.

To make any set of levels interesting you need:

A) Enough new powers (or spells), abilities (or feats) and items (or artifacts) to make levelling-up an attractive prospect.

B) Enough new adversaries and monsters to keep the heroes preoccupied (bare minimum 100 stat-blocks per tier - in 4e parlance)

Thus, for the purpose of 4th Edition, making a new tier covering Levels 31-40 would be pointless without A & B (from above).

Given also that the epic tier is somewhat shortchanged when it comes to adversaries and monsters I think we need to build that up somewhat first. Theres no point having a great 31-40 tier if people are going to be unimpressed by levels 21-30.

Philosophically you also have the question of what does each tier represent? Again here, theres no point having a hundred new tiers or even ten new tiers, since you are going to be limited by what it represents.

Personally I think we could probably have a theoretical maximum of 3 new PC tiers.

A Demigod Tier (which I am calling the Legendary Tier), covering levels 31-40. Just to note that the Epic Destiny "Demigod" represents the path to becoming a demigod, it does not grant you the power of an actual demigod.

A God Tier (which I am calling the Immortal Tier), covering levels 41-50. Just to note that gods like Vecna and Tiamat would exist in this tier if they were PCs or standard monsters. When converting a standard monster to a solo monster you reduce its level by 9 thus giving it the same EXP total. So Level 35 Solo Controller Vecna would be Level 44 for the purpose of determining his power within the immortal tier.

An Overgod Tier (which I am calling the Sidereal Tier), covering Levels 51-60. Hard to say whether this tier is warranted. However, I think I can just about come up with a hundred or so adversaries and monsters to challenge overgods so it is a possibility. Also there are some ideas that exist on the periphery of this upper scale that I would like to explore such as retired supreme beings.

The 61-70 Tier would be called the Eternal Tier but it wouldn't be a PC tier, simply a resource from which to draw adversaries and monsters from. As noted above in the Vecna example. Something from a Level 61-70 Tier would effectively be Level 52-61 when converted to a Solo opponent, or Level 57-66 when converted to Elite.
 

You are completely correct, and personally I'm a proponent of getting rid of the half-level bonus entirely.
Hmm. I'm very interested in "unscaled" worlds -- where bonuses have diminishing returns, and an experienced PC has more tricks & better defenses rather than merely being able to hit a higher number than a green PC.

Worth noting, though, that a level n group rarely faces exclusively level n enemies, so the bonus actually does affect things.
Well, the relative level matters, but it's only important if the PCs face identical monsters across several levels.

In place of a fixed level bonus, the DM could do the same thing by assigning relative defenses to your foes. The benefit here would be that you'd have a smaller scale, so more critters could fit into it, and they'd still have huge ablative defense, active defense & utility gaps (keeping 3rd level PCs from assaulting an ancient dragon, for example).

I wonder if something like these mechanics could replace the level bonus:
Bonus from Experience: PCs gain a +1 to attack rolls every 5 levels. Monsters similarly gain a +1 to attacks & defenses every 5 levels.
Bonus from Familiarity: PCs gain a +2 to attack rolls against critters of a specific type they've faced frequently.

Cheers, -- N
 

Bonus from Familiarity: PCs gain a +2 to attack rolls against critters of a specific type they've faced frequently.

Cheers, -- N

Now thats a mighty cool idea that I'm going to yoink for my d20 based 3d6 homebrew system. It is already rather similiar to E6 (it caps at level 10) and uses skills in place of BAB/Initiative and to determine spell access. Adding a bonus for monster familiarity would certainly add some dynamics to this system that apart from that is fairly "static" right now! *xp given*
 

Where does one go beyond such spells as gate, shapechange, temporal stasis, time stop and wish? I think the answer is probably "to a notably different game".

Frank Mentzer's Immortals rules are that, retaining key touch-points with D&D. They are essentially a very high-powered "comic book super-hero" kind of deal. At an even further point, I think the D&D premises and rules systems are likely to become pretty irrelevant to matters of significance.

The alternative is probably just to keep doing the same old things with bigger numbers, a World of Synnibar kind of power-gaming. The kind of power-gaming I would associate with a truly "god-level" context would be one of cosmic creation, establishing the Ultimate Rules themselves.
 

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