D&D (2024) Should MAD Classes be addressed in OneD&D

[James Gasik]

I would prefer a game where all ability scores benefit characters equally, but without adding derived secondary ability scores (like Strength and Dexterity helping to determine movement speed), or having multiple ability scores adding bonuses to the same thing (like Strength and Dexterity granting bonuses to climbing), I don't think that's really possible.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I would prefer a game where all ability scores benefit characters equally, but without adding derived secondary ability scores (like Strength and Dexterity helping to determine movement speed), or having multiple ability scores adding bonuses to the same thing (like Strength and Dexterity granting bonuses to climbing), I don't think that's really possible.

And we should not go that route in the base rules...

I personally did like v shaped classes in 4e. They just fell flat because of expected attribute scaling
I think it was great to have to primaries and one secondary stat. In my opinion that allowed for 3 distinctive builds, while A shaped classes usually had just 2.

 

[Horwath]

I would really appreciate a different model for ability scores that was more generous to secondary and tertiary ability scores.

just add more points to point buy pool.

 

[Incenjucar]

You can count me in with the "Each stat should have value for each class" crowd. Your attributes should be how you specialize, not how you reach base competency.

 

[Horwath]

Or alternately, do what AD&D did, and when increasing ability scores beyond 18, each ASI improves the ability score by a fraction. Ie, raising lower scores is fine, trying to become a demigod is hard.

one solution could be point buy for scores.

15 to 16 costs 3pts
16 to 17 costs 3pts
17 to 18 costs 4pts
18 to 19 costs 4pts
19 to 20 costs 4pts

with every ASI you get 8pts or 4 with a half feat.

 

[Horwath]

Personally, I think they should make all classes MAD and then take away common and guaranteed (i.e. non-magical) ways to permanently increase ability scores after character creation. But that second part is probably the AD&D player in me talking.

remove racial/background ASI.

you gain only feats, not ASIs over levels.

increase starting point buy pool/standard array.

standard array:
18,16,14,12,10,10

or point buy:

8: 0pts
10: 1pt
12: 2pts
14: 3pts
16: 5pts
18: 8pts

pool: 20pts

you can only increase abilities via magic items or epic boons or high level class abilities.

 

[Vaalingrade]

you gain only feats, not ASIs over levels.

Oh, Horwath, you make a guy blush, you sly devil you.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't see this as a big problem for several reasons:

1. rolling dice remains the default way to generate ability scores, so that means what you roll has a lot more to do with how viable a class is. Roll two natural 16s and you are set and well ahead on the "ASI tree". If your highest roll is one 14 then a MAD class is a bad choice anyway and the dice are dictating that more than the feats are.

2. If they keep standard human that gives a +6 boost to abilities at generation, while still getting a 1st level feat and again this puts you way ahead on the ASI tree. As it is right now in 5E standard human is almost never used for point buy builds as they tend to focus on the extremes-high stats and dump stats, but standard human is one of the most common options for rolled builds due to the huge impact it has on your stats. With standard human getting a feat and inspiration after every rest I think it will be an even more attractive option.

3. You can still use a half-feat to boost an odd stat to even. So in a case of point buy you can plan for this by starting with a 15 or 17 in a key stat without being behind.

4. There is way too much emphasis on maximizing stats on message boards. This is out of proportion to the actual value of a 20 vs a 16. A Monk with a 16 Dex and 16 Wisdom is very playable into level 15+. I have personally played the following examples:

V. Human Fighter Arcane Archer 7-Rogue Arcane Trickster 8-Shadow Sorcerer1 with an 8 strength, 16 Dex, 10 Constitution, 18 Intelligence and 13 Charisma at level 16. She had martial adept, Fey Touched (intelligence), Shadow Touched (intelligence), Telekenetic (intelligence) and Sharpshooter.

I also played a Goblin Fey Wanderer Ranger 14/Rogue 1 with a 16 dex, 10 con and 19 Wisdom at 15th level. She took 3 half-wisdom feats telepathic, shadow touched, Gift of Gem Dragon. Your stats and choices dictate your style of play and there are some really bad choices out there, but there are builds beyond the templates that can be very effective at all tiers with 16s in your main stats.

Considering all 3 phases, the Goblin Fey Wanderer/Rogue in particular was the most powerful character at that table at the end of the game, including the Evocation Wizard and Divine Soul Sorcerer we had. With a 10 con and a 16 in her main attack stat, she is still one of the most powerful tier 4 characters I have ever played. The Fighter/Rogue/Sorc was not the most powerful but good, viable, fun and played well despite many "suboptimal" choices.