D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Voadam]

Which is also a problem and why clerics should automatically be able to have expertise at religion. And druids/rangers animal handling. Every class should be an expert(expertise) in their major areas.

Funny enough Rangers as a skill class get double proficiency bonus in all intelligence and wisdom checks (so that includes animal handling) related to their favored terrain. So broader than expertise in a single skill, but narrower in that it is only for chosen terrain appropriate skill checks.

I find the off/on favored enemy/terrain stuff design I don't like, but it is there.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Funny enough Rangers as a skill class get double proficiency bonus in all intelligence and wisdom checks (so that includes animal handling) related to their favored terrain. So broader than expertise in a single skill, but narrower in that it is only for chosen terrain appropriate skill checks.

I find the off/on favored enemy/terrain stuff design I don't like, but it is there.

Favored terrain: Wizard Tower

Expertise on Spellcraft.

 

[Voadam]

Favored terrain: Wizard Tower

Expertise on Spellcraft.

A lot of drow wizards in the Underdark, and elven wizards in forest kingdoms, so . . .

 

[James Gasik]

It's not that the scholar rogue is a problem. It's that scholar rogues should not be better than the best of the classes that specializes in those things. Van Richten there isn't better than the best Cleric at hunting down undead creatures. Clerics have both his knowledge AND better weapons for fighting creatures like that.

Also, if bad dreams sent by a dark lord were enough to break Van Richten, he wouldn't have been"...as feared by the dark lords and minions of the land as they themselves are by the average adventurer." Already whoever wrote that is suspect.

Except Religion is an Int skill, and most Clerics prioritize other ability scores...

 

[James Gasik]

I may have lost track, but I think Wizards gain Expertise in Arcana in at least one of the playtests. So it would appear someone at WotC is thinking along these lines.

 

[Maxperson]

Except Religion is an Int skill, and most Clerics prioritize other ability scores...

As do most rogues. Best cleric(20 int) should be better than best rogue(20 int), or at a minimum the same. The rogue shouldn't be able to be better than the best cleric.

 

[James Gasik]

As do most rogues. Best cleric(20 int) should be better than best rogue(20 int), or at a minimum the same. The rogue shouldn't be able to be better than the best cleric.

Well thinking about it, Rogues get more use out of Int for Investigation than Clerics do in general, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a Rogue with a higher Intelligence than a Cleric, though 20 for either would be very unexpected.

And a counterpoint- if this is about protecting a niche or role a class should be good at, giving everyone Expertise does take away the Rogue's "cool thing".*

*(Total Aside) Not that I'm arguing that only Rogues should/could have Expertise. Honestly, I hate Expertise, because it makes shambles of the skill system. Characters with Expertise blow past other characters fairly quickly, meaning you either have to introduce very difficult skill checks that only Expertise characters can make, and other players just sit on their hands, or just assume Expertise means almost guaranteed success.

I know some people don't see this as a problem, but imagine if Fighters had Expertise on attack rolls when using a particular weapon...

 

[Maxperson]

Well thinking about it, Rogues get more use out of Int for Investigation than Clerics do in general, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a Rogue with a higher Intelligence than a Cleric, though 20 for either would be very unexpected.

And a counterpoint- if this is about protecting a niche or role a class should be good at, giving everyone Expertise does take away the Rogue's "cool thing".*

I disagree. 6 skills with expertise is far, FAR better than 1. Giving the other classes a single instance of expertise takes nothing away from the rogue. If having a small degree of what another class is good at was reason not to give it, then there should be no Arcane Tricksters or Eldritch knights since arcane spells are the wizard's "cool thing."

*(Total Aside) Not that I'm arguing that only Rogues should/could have Expertise. Honestly, I hate Expertise, because it makes shambles of the skill system. Characters with Expertise blow past other characters fairly quickly, meaning you either have to introduce very difficult skill checks that only Expertise characters can make, and other players just sit on their hands, or just assume Expertise means almost guaranteed success.

I know some people don't see this as a problem, but imagine if Fighters had Expertise on attack rolls when using a particular weapon...

I imagine there would be fewer martial vs. arcane arguments.

But I see your point.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I know some people don't see this as a problem, but imagine if Fighters had Expertise on attack rolls when using a particular weapon...

It'd be a less profound difference in 5e (+4 to +12 vs +2 to +6) than it was in 3e (+1 to +20 vs +0 to +10) or under THAC0 or the old attack matrices.

 

[Voadam]

As do most rogues. Best cleric(20 int) should be better than best rogue(20 int), or at a minimum the same. The rogue shouldn't be able to be better than the best cleric.

Acolyte Rogues are not better than the best clerics at religion. They are equal.
Knowledge clerics are the best clerics at the religion skill and get:

BLESSINGS OF KNOWLEDGE
At 1st level, you learn two languages of your choice. You also become proficient in your choice of two of the following skills: Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion.
Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those skills.

So add knowledge clerics to those potential top tier arcana experts who could theoretically hit higher DCs than straight 5e wizards.

Those of you familiar with 2e specialty priests may be having flashbacks.