D&D (2024) Should Saving Throw DCs just be Ability Scores?

[Charlaquin]

What if instead of save DCs, they were non-AC defenses? Replace anything that would normally force a save with a given ability with an attack targeting that ability score. So, for example, Charm Person would be a spellcasting attack against the target’s Wisdom score instead of their AC.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure

But there really isn't that much balancing in the rules for rolling very well or very poorly.

If you roll an 16 and bump up to 18 in the old way, you only get the 4 increases to DC from proficiency and the 1 increase from the bump to 20.

In the Ability Score DC method you get, 2 increases from the bumps to 20 and 1 from the epic boon.

Plus are we really sympathetically scrapping things for the guy with divine rolls at charop?

It doesn't take divine rolls. I rolled a character the other day that had 15, 13, 13, 12, 12, 11. Not one low stat there. Not one high stat there. It's not uncommon to get rolls like that.

And as I said, the guy who rolls a 7 and gets -2 to his save against that enemy with a 15-17 casting stat is screwed. Even a 13 in a casting stat is going to result in that guy missing his saves 70% of the time, which is antithetical to 5e's intent with success at die rolls.

 

[Xeviat]

What if instead of save DCs, they were non-AC defenses? Replace anything that would normally force a save with a given ability with an attack targeting that ability score. So, for example, Charm Person would be a spellcasting attack against the target’s Wisdom score instead of their AC.

AC commonly starts at 15 and scales to 18-20+ before magic items get involved. That's the range for high ability scores, but it would be real rough for 8s, 10s, and 12s. Maybe if proficiency bonus was added to it, it could work.

 

[Charlaquin]

AC commonly starts at 15 and scales to 18-20+ before magic items get involved. That's the range for high ability scores, but it would be real rough for 8s, 10s, and 12s. Maybe if proficiency bonus was added to it, it could work.

Well, 8+Mod+Prof vs a d20 roll+mod+prof means the aggressor will generally succeed on a roll of 8 or higher, so 65% of the time. If the defender doesn’t have proficiency in the relevant save, the aggressor’s chance of success rises by 10% to 30%, depending on their proficiency bonus.

Assuming the aggressor starts with +3 in their relevant ability and proficiency, they’ll have a 90% chance of hitting against an ability score of 8 and a 30% chance of hitting against an ability score of 20. That’s a very similar spread.

 

[dave2008]

People often ask "Why do we still have ability scores?"

5E went out it's way to not use them after generating ability score modifiers. There aren't many formula that use them. Nor are there a ton of feats of various prereqs that use them as benchmarks.

But Ability scores are a number value that is between 8-22 for more PCs and have increments that show variance within monsters.

You know what else is usually in that range: Saving Throw Difficulty Classes

What if your Saving Throw DCs were just your associated Ability Score instead of 8 + Proficiency mod+ Ability Mod?

You no longer have to calculate DCs on the fly or just make up random numbers for DCs.

• Spellcasting DCs
• Grapple DCs
• Species trait DCs
• Subclass feature DCs
• Crafted Item DCs
• Topple Weapon Mastery DCs
• Custom Weapon Mastery DCs
• Improvised Weapon Attack DC

Now DCa would start much higher. Ability Score is 2-4 higher than the Old Formula. So you might have to give PCs another Saving throw Proficiency and legendary monsters another legendary resistance.

I tried it at my last game. The warriors liked the high chance improvised actions (2024 got away from Attack Roll then Saving throw and does just one or another. So I went with that). And the casters loved the high failure of monsters. And it made a caster monster feel very scary as two members of the party failed their save by just so.

I also did a fun thing and let the players roll the mental scores of the enemy caster. 3 players got to roll it's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Based on their rolls, the mage was a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer based on the highest roll and got a extra spells, healing magic, or sorcery points respectively. Queue Quickened spell plus Cantrips when someone rolled 17 for CHA.

I found it as an interesting experiment and it got the players thinking about their odd numbered scores. And their scores in general.

I think that make a lot of sense, I may adopt with the following caveat:

• Non-proficient: you make the roll with disadvantage
• proficient: you make the roll normally
• expertise: you make the roll with advantage

 

[Horwath]

little off topic but still withing the theme,
I would do the opposite.
remove the ability usage from "combat" rolls or stats.

that is remove them from attack, damage, AC, DC, saves and replace them with proficiency bonus.
also, remove Con and give everyone +2 HP per level(80-90% of characters have 14 CON anyway)

then you can have:

initiative: d20+prof bonus or d20+2×prof bonus with some kind of feat(alert)

AC: 10+prof bonus
light armor: +2 AC or +3 AC with stealth penalty
medium armor: +3 AC or +4 AC with stealth penalty
heavy armor: +4 AC or +5 AC with stealth penalty
(+X magic armor removed from the game)
Shield: +2 as normal

Attack;
non-proficient: d20+prof bonus
proficient: d20+2×prof bonus

damage: weapon damage + prof bonus

DC: 8+2×prof bonus

saves:
non-proficient: d20+prof bonus
proficient: d20+2×prof bonus


now we can return fixed ability bonuses/penalties for species, size and even gender if someone wants it as it does not effect combat capability.

and it also encourages diverse character design where you are not forced into maxing your primary and secondary stat before anything else.


On-topic:
I kind of agree with the premise but as others mentioned, in 90% of the cases starting DCs would be 17 instead of 13. That could be a too much of a boost for low level casters.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This really feels like a change for change sake kind of proposal. It messes with monster DC's as well, and makes everything too stat dependent with no skill component.

I'd be all in favor of going back to Fortitude/Reflex/Will saves though.

 

[Minigiant]

It doesn't take divine rolls. I rolled a character the other day that had 15, 13, 13, 12, 12, 11. Not one low stat there. Not one high stat there. It's not uncommon to get rolls like that.

And as I said, the guy who rolls a 7 and gets -2 to his save against that enemy with a 15-17 casting stat is screwed. Even a 13 in a casting stat is going to result in that guy missing his saves 70% of the time, which is antithetical to 5e's intent with success at die rolls.

But the point made was on someone who rolled a high roll but no low rolls.

I don't think the people who roll 17 and 18 and nothing under 12 deserve extra sympathy. Rolling unbalanced is allowed and managed by the DM.

Your wizard might start with a DC 19 for their spell DCs and think you are soooooo cool.

Then a giant grapples you and you gotta beat a DC 19 Strength check with a +0.

PCs and NPCs don't need to roll to grapple.

 

[Maxperson]

But the point made was on someone who rolled a high roll but no low rolls.

I don't think the people who roll 17 and 18 and nothing under 12 deserve extra sympathy. Rolling unbalanced is allowed and managed by the DM.

Your wizard might start with a DC 19 for their spell DCs and think you are soooooo cool.

Then a giant grapples you and you gotta beat a DC 19 Strength check with a +0.

PCs and NPCs don't need to roll to grapple.

So because maybe 5% of people don't deserve extra sympathy, the other 95% who don't roll amazingly well get screwed on their saves. Your examples there just prove my point. Those DCs are way too high for those levels.

 

[Minigiant]

So because maybe 5% of people don't deserve extra sympathy, the other 95% who don't roll amazingly well get screwed on their saves. Your examples there just prove my point. Those DCs are way too high for those levels.

Well I also say that there should be another rule on the other side that boosts saves.

The point is

The Ogre has this

		Mod	Save			Mod	Save
STR	19	+4	+4	INT	5	-3	-3
DEX	8	-1	-1	WIS	7	-2	-2
CON	16	+3	+3	CHA	7	-2	-2

Where's the Shovel DC?
Where's the Grapple Escape DC?
Where's the Spell DC if I give him a warlock cantrip from a hag?
Where's the DC to dodge if he does a moonsault?


If Ability Scores are DCs, then those are printed as well.

Moonsault? Vadersault? Samoan Splash?
Constitution due to fattiness.
DC is Constitution score.
DC 16.