Should strong players have an advantage?

[Michael Silverbane]

The strong player can't actually use his strength to his advantage in a tabletop RPG, unless he's intimidating the DM! The question only arises with attributes that can actually be used by the player. It might be relevant in a LARP, eg the player could strike faster in melee, possibly giving him an advantage.

There's got to be a way to substitute Str for Cha in this case.

 

[Umbran]

We call them Role Playing Games, but really, they aren't. Games have winners and losers...

Cue discussion of term "game". In short - there are common definitions of "game" that allow for activities that do not have ultimate win conditions.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Personally, I wonder whether a better option might be a game with physical stats, but non-physical descriptors. So a character would be:

Str: 17
Dex: 11
Con: 14
Magic: 5
Traits: Kind, Superstitious, Slightly Gullible

Then play that character. The physical stats are used for the tactical combat, and the descriptors guide roleplaying. Separate out the part of the game where dice rolls and numbers really work, and leave roleplaying free to breath.

I like this and suspect something similar may already be out there. Has anyone seen a game like this?

 

[Hussar]

One problem I'm having with these threads is if PCs shouldn't benefit from their players' abilities (primarily mental), then isn't the person taking that position waving the badwrongfun flag at styles of play that don't strictly adhere to mechanical role playing resolution?

Personally, I do have the players make important interaction rolls based on their PCs' abilities and I offer bonuses for good role playing or ideas as well (that will almost certainly come from their own inherent abilities). But I'd rather not take the position that people who eschew all mechanical RP resolution are playing the game wrong or shouldn't be using a character sheet at all.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of hoisting this flag I suppose.

I'm a big believer that a player should be trying all the time to play the character that he or she created. That should be the player's goal at all times. To portray, the the best of his or her ability, that character that is sitting on the that sheet of paper.

If that means toning back your personality, then so be it. You SHOULD be toning it back if your character is a 10 Cha barbarian with no ranks in Diplomacy. That's what the character is. Playing beyond that is not actually playing the character in front of you.

Granted, I realize that this is often an impossible goal. Very few of us are that good that we can achieve this level of portrayal all the time. I accept that. And, to be honest, there's no real problem here, as long as some effort is being given in that direction.

What bugs me is the guy that dump stats and then totally ignores it. And it bugs me even further when that same player gets a pat on the back from the DM for being a "good roleplayer".

 

[gamerprinter]

I think a good player can use his stats to maximize the gaming experience, using one's real intelligence and wisdom to play the dumb and unwise character. Isn't that more fun, than the alternative?

I remember a character I played back in the early 80's, a Dragon magazine version of a barbarian class. Through the convoluted stat rolling scheme, I ended up with a Wisdom of 4. So I actively looked for situations which my character should be totally unfamiliar due to lack of experience (I was visiting a city for the very first time...) and do the wrong thing. He wasn't stupid, he just didn't 'get it' on anything truly out of his experience.

One instance I was getting a room at an inn, each party member getting their own room and key. However, I assumed my barbarian never seen a lock and key before. After some fun RP, I rolled to see if I could match the marking on the key to my room door - I succeeded. Then decided my character thought he arrived at his destination, took off all his clothes and laid naked in front of the door - I didn't know a room existed beyond the door. (I was from a very primitive village - no doors apparently - far from any city.) Of course I was arrested and became a gladiator slave in the arena...

 

[S'mon]

I like this and suspect something similar may already be out there. Has anyone seen a game like this?

Here's my system, which I created ca 1996 and used for PBEM play. From http://www.geocities.ws/s.t.newman/EaToC2.html

_________
SIMON'S PBEM RULES: SWORDS & SORCERY VERSION.

These rules are intended to enable a PBEM GamesMaster (GM) to simulate the world of swords & sorcery fiction. They are based on the throw of a single six-sided die (d6) combined with the GM's good judgement to resolve almost all actions.

Characters

Most Characters have the following five stats: Strength, Speed, Skill, Agility, and Stamina. The average stat, based on an 18-year-old human male, is 3. A character with Str 6 is twice as strong as a normal man. Attribute checks are made when a character attempts a task they might fail - roll a d6, if the number rolled is equal to or less than the stat, they have succeeded. The roll may be modified (eg +1 or -1) for particularly easy or hard tasks. Characters do not usually have Mental attributes (except possibly Magic, below) because the GM should adjudicate use of mental and other abilities depending on the character and the situation. (But if the GM prefers, characters may be assigned stats in Intelligence, Willpower, Knowledge & Charisma).


Character Stats

Typical Normal Human Stats.

Character (Strength Speed Skill Agility Stamina)

Male, 18-yr-old 3 3 3 3 3


Magic-using characters have a sixth attribute, Magic.

Witches and Warlocks.

Rank Magic

Novice 1-3

Adept 4-6

Sorceror 7-9

Magus 10-12

Example: Munchausen is a powerful Warlock, his stats are Strength 4, Speed 4, Skill 4, Agility 4, Magic 8, Stamina 3.


Fixed-Point Character Generation.

A starting Swords & Sorcery player character is given 18 Attribute Points to allocate to character stats, at least 1 point per stat. Magic-using characters (Witches, Warlocks, Priests) also get 18 points and must allocate at least 1 point to their Magic stat.

Typical Characters (18-pt).

Character (Strength Speed Skill Agility Stamina)

Warrior 4 3 4 3 4

Rogue 3 4 4 4 3

Sorceror 2 3 3 3 3 Magic: 4

Priest 3 3 3 3 4 Magic: 2


COMBAT.

The combat round is about 6 seconds, in which time a character may attack, cast a spell, run away, etc.

In 1 round character may move 10' per point of Speed, double if running, treble if sprinting (but may not then attack).

The Combat Sequence:

Each character rolls the following

1. Initiative: d6+ Speed, highest rolling character goes first.

2. Attack: Need to roll (4 - Skill + target's Agility) or more to hit.

3. Damage: Strength + weapon damage.

4. Wounds are compared vs target's Stamina - see below.

Special Note: in melee a defending character can use his Skill as

the attribute the attacker has to beat, instead of Agility, to

reflect parrying ability. This applies to only 1 Attacker (unless

the defender splits their Skill amongst several attackers, trying to

parry 2 or more at once).

So, if B'Krath Skill 5 Agl 3 was in melee with an opponent who attacked at Skill 3, he could:

A. Dodge -Skill 3 vs Agl 3, attacker needs 4+ to hit, or

B. Parry - Skill 3 vs Skill 5, attacker needs 6+ to hit.

B'Krath can still attack normally while also using his Skill to parry.

Weapons.

Weapon Damage Notes

Fist STR 1 att, or 2 attacks at -1 & -2.

Kick STR+1 1 attack at -1 (unless trained in kick-fighting).

Club STR+1d6 or more. Improvised club att at -1.

Dagger STR+1d6 Lethal damage.

Sword STR+1d6+1 " "

Mace STR+1d6+1 " "

Greatsword 2xSTR+1d6+1 " " (2-handed)

Spear 2xSTR+1d6 " " "

Great Axe 2xSTR+1d6+2 " " (2-handed), -1 Agility

Arrow (shortbow) 2d6 Fire 1/round

Arrow (longbow) 2d6+STR Fire 1/round

Quarrel (crossbow) 3d6 Fire 1/2 rounds.

Quarrel (heavy crossbow) 5d6 Fire 1/4 rounds.


Two-Weapon Combat.

Sword and dagger: Both attacks at -1 to hit.

Two Swords: 1 attack at -1 to hit, 1 attack at -2 to hit.

Armour.

Some characters may have armour. This reduces damage by 1 point per point of armour.

Armour. Armour Points Penalty

Leather 1 Nil (but see below)

Chainmail 2 -1 Agility

Platemail 3 -1 Agility

Full Plate Armour 4 -1 Agility

Helmets and/or Armour which covers the limbs impose an additional -1 Speed penalty.

Shields: An attacker is -1 to hit an opponent using a shield, or fencing one-handed.

_______________________________________________________

Stamina/Wounds System.

Average Stamina: 3.

NB: All effects are cumulative.

Damage Roll Result

Under Stamina. Scratch - character must make Stamina check or lose an action.

= St, Under 2 St. Minor Wound. 2 Minor wounds = 1 Major.

= 2 St, Under 3 St. Major Wound. All stats halved (round up). 2 Major = 1 Critical.

= 3 St, Under 4 St. Critical Wound. Unconscious*. 2 Crit. = Dead.

= 4 St + Dead.

*Without medical attention, character must pass 1d6 Stam check, or die in 0-9 hours + 1-60 minutes. If they pass they wake up at the end of this period.

Example: Blakus has Stamina 3.

He is punched by Jilla (Str 2), dam 2, less than his Stamina, so Scratch. Loses his action.

He is then punched by Jimec (Str 3), dam 3, = his Stam, so Minor Wound.

He is then shot by an arrow, dam 2d6. Roll 4, greater than his Stamina. Minor Wound. Has taken 2 minor wounds, so 1 Major Wound. All stats halved, Stamina reduced to 2.

He is then shot by a crossbow bolt, dam 3d6. Roll 8, = 4 x Stamina, so he is dead.

Damage Roll Result

Less than Stamina. Scratch*

Stamina Minor Wound.

2 x Stamina. Major Wound. Stats halved (round up).

3 x Stamina Critical Wound. Unconscious**.

4 x Stamina Dead.

2 Minor wounds = 1 Major, 2 Major = 1 Critical, 2 Critical = Dead.

*Scratch: Stamina check on 1d6 or lose actions for rest of round.

**Without medical attention, must pass 1d6 Stam check, or die in 0-9

hours + 1-60 minutes.



Combat Example:

Round 1. Munchausen (Speed 4) faces Mike (Speed 3).

1. Munchausen gets 4 + d6 roll 4 = 8 for initiative, Mike gets 3+ d6 roll 1 = 4. Munchausen goes first.

2. Munchausen (Skill 4) needs 3 to hit Mike (Agility 3) with a magic knife. He gets 2 - misses.

3. Mike (Skill 3) shoots an arrow at Munchausen (Agility 4) He needs a "5". He gets "4" - miss.

Round 2.

Munchausen gets 4+4=8 for Initiative, Mike gets 3+4=7. Munchausen goes first. Needs "3", gets 4 and hits. Magical knife does 2d6 damage + his Strength of 4. Rolls 8+4=12 damage. This is 4 x Mike's Stamina of 3, so he is killed.

Hit Location

A hit may always be declared to be against the target's torso. Optionally roll d6 or d6+4 (for melee), or d10 (for missile), on hit-location table.

1: Head.

2: Right arm.

3: Left arm.

4-6: Torso.

7-8: Right leg.

9-10: Left leg.

Head hits do double damage (roll dammage, deduct armour points, then double the remaining damage). A major wound to a limb is reduced to a minor wound, but the limb is used at -1 on all operations. A critical wound to a limb is reduced to a major wound, but the limb is unusable until healed. A dead result to a limb is reduced to a critical wound, but the limb is destroyed/permanently disabled.



HEALING OF WOUNDS.

Recovery Without medical attention With medical attention

Minor to none 2 days 1 day.

Major to Minor 4 days 2 days.

Critical to Major 8 days 4 days.

_____________________________________________________________________

Magic

Some characters may be Witches (female) or Warlocks (male), and have a 6th attribute: Magic Skill. The character's Magic Skill determines the number of spells they know, the power of those spells when cast, and the number of spells they can cast per day. Casting a spell temporarily reduces a character's Magic by 1 (or more) - when it reaches 0, the character is too tired to cast more spells. If it falls below 1 due to casting a powerful spell, the following effects apply:

Magic Effect

-1 Unconscious

-2 Unc & 1d6 damage.

-3 Unc & 2d6 damage.

-4 Unc & 3d6 damage

Etc.

Some spells require an attribute check against a character's current Magic to succeed. Temporarily lost magic points regenerate during sleep at a rate of 1/hour.

A typical starting Witch or Warlock will have a Magic rating of between 1 (poor) and 3 (talented).

Spells usually take 1 combat round to cast. Players are encouraged to create their own spells.

Examples of Spells:

1. Energy Blast. Cost: 1.

Effect: Causes a blast of magical energy from the caster's hands, doing 1 point Stamina damage to the target per point of caster's pre-casting Magic Skill. The caster must make a succesful Attack roll (get 4 or more on d6-Skill+Target's Agility) to hit. A more powerful blast costs 2 Magic points and does double damage, the most powerful blast costs 3 points and does treble damage. Range is 3m per point of pre-casting Magic.

Spellcasting Example: Munchausen the Warlock (Magic 8, Skill 4) knows 8 spells. He fires an energy blast at Kenko (Agility 3, Stamina 10). Munchausen spends 2 Magic pts for a double-power blast. He needs 4-4+3=3 or more on a d6 to hit - "4" - hits. Damage is 8x2=16. Kenko's Stamina is reduced to 10-16=-6, killing him. Munchausen's current Magic falls to 6.

2.Domination Cost: 1 +1/order.

This spell enable the caster to temporarily dominate the mind of another, who must be within sight and hearing distance, maximum range 3m per point of pre-casting Magic. After control is established, the target is frozen in place. The caster can then attempt to give the target telepathic orders, if successful the target must carry them out to the best of his or her ability. The caster must make a d6 attribute check vs current Magic to succeed. Caster gets a +1 bonus to his Magic rating if the target is of the opposite sex (and heterosexual). Particularly strong-willed targets, and orders strongly against the target's nature, will cause a penalty, usually -1 to -3. Initial control and each order given to the target requires a separate d6 check and costs 1 magic pt. Domination requires the caster's whole attention, if the caster is wounded or distracted, control is automatically broken.

Example: Munchausen (male, Magic 8) attempts to dominate Leda (female, average willpower). The initial attempt needs 8+1=9 or less on a d6, and automatically succeeds. Munchausen's Magic falls to 7.

He then orders Leda to kill herself, this is strongly against her nature, so there is a -3 penalty to the check. Munchausen needs 7+1-3=5 or less on a d6. He gets "5", and she walks off the rooftop. Munchausen's Magic falls to 6.

3. Levitation Cost: 1/minute.

This spell enables the caster to float in the air, he may raise or lower himself at a rate of 3m per round per current (post-casting) point of Magic, eg Munchausen, Magic 8-1=7, can float up or down at up to 3m/70' per round.

4. Invisibility. Cost: 1/minute.

This spell turns the caster invisible. Other spellcasters may be able to detect him if he is within sight, they must roll equal to or less than their Magic minus the caster's current Magic on 1d6 to do so.

5. Fly. Cost: 3/minute.

This spell enables the caster to fly at a rate of 9m (30')/round per remaining (post-casting) point of Magic.

6. Healing. Cost: Special.

This power requires the laying-on of hands, and is typically available only to goodly priests.

Healing minor wound: 1 MP.

Major to minor: 2 MP.

Critical to major: 4 MP.

_________________________________________________________



EXPERIENCE

Characters may gain Experience Points through actions, and improve their attributes. For every 100 xp earned, a character gets a +1 bonus to an attribute chosen by the GM, normally an attribute that has been extensively used, or rolled randomly.

Example: A beginning PC defeats a soldier in combat, and earns 15 xp. Six more such victories, and he will gain an attribute bonus.

 

[pemerton]

I'm a big believer that a player should be trying all the time to play the character that he or she created. That should be the player's goal at all times. To portray, the the best of his or her ability, that character that is sitting on the that sheet of paper.

If that means toning back your personality, then so be it.

What about when a player is using third person rather than first person narration? In that case, the clever/witty player's descriptions of his/her PC's endeavours are likely to be more entertaining, to the GM and the group as a whole, than the descriptions given by other less gifted players. Should witty and engaging descriptions of actions earn a +2 bonus to checks?

I don't generally play this way, but I think some groups do.

 

[LurkAway]

In real-life sports, cheating (i.e, performance enhancing drugs) gives an unfair advantage. It is a competition of innate performance, so artificially enhancing your natural abilities is unfair.

If the competition was about sumtotal performance (natural, drug-enhancing, cybernetics), then there's no such thing as an unfair advantage.

In RPGs, cheating (ie., sometimes acting beyond your Charisma) gives an unfair advantage? Organically enhancing your artificial stats is unfair because... it's a competition of artificial character stats?

I thought that an rpg is about human agency in a fantasy. The character is the sumtotal of the player and the character stats.

It's absolutely applauded to be true to the character concept. But what is a 10 Cha exactly and innately? How can you respect a number as anything but a general guideline when that number is a gross simplification and amalgamated abstraction of many different elements of personality?

 

[Umbran]

Organically enhancing your artificial stats is unfair because... it's a competition of artificial character stats?

Because it may be stealing the thunder away from another player.

If you've used Charisma as your dump stat, that probably means that someone else has taken a high-charisma role. That makes the social situations his or her place to shine, not yours.

 

[LurkAway]

Because it may be stealing the thunder away from another player.

If you've used Charisma as your dump stat, that probably means that someone else has taken a high-charisma role. That makes the social situations his or her place to shine, not yours.

And what if both PCs have high Cha but one player is more charismatic and she's the one that makes the group laugh and clap with her sharp insight and clever verbal jousting with NPCs. Both players are roleplaying their Cha stat, but she's stealing the thunder. The DM may unconsciously reward her with with NPC responses that the poor guy doesn't elicit. If she's not stealing the thunder mechanically, she's still outshining him narratively.