Should undead be allowed to speak?

[Nail]

Perhaps there is a Law of Magic in the universe that states "The Silence of The Grave Cannot Be Broken" meaning that it is impossible to enable a skeleton/zombie to speak.

But other undead CAN speak. It's in the RAW. Even "skeletal" undead.

Perhaps one must have a soul to speak. You can say that mindless undead have no souls, just an animate force of negative energy directed by residual instinct, while more advanced undead (those that are regularly intelligent) have souls. The awaken undead does not give the undead a soul or call its soul to the corpse (as it regains no former abilities), it just instills a higher capacity for reasoning within the remains.

Closer. ...but your hypothesis still falls apart.

How is an awakened skeleton different than a Lich (with respect to sentience)? Both have all their mental stats above 3 (or so ).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

How is an awakened skeleton different than a Lich (with respect to sentience)? Both have all their mental stats above 3 (or so ).

I had always invisioned the Lich as something akin to the Cryptkeeper, from Tales of the Crypt, or perhaps like the mummy (pre-rejuvenation) from The Mummy and The Mummy Returns. Skeletal, but not a skeleton.

I've never had to make this ruling, but a part of me understands where the DM is coming from. Skeletons don't have working muscles. They don't have lips (even dried-out, crusty ones,) or vocal cords or lungs. So one could extrapolate from that that skeletons cannot speak, whereas zombies and vampires and liches can.

Naturally, as others have already pointed out, there is magic in this game of ours, and it's easy to handwave that away and rule that the same magic that animates the skeleton in the first place (bypassing its need for muscles with regards to movement) also provides it with the ability to speak (bypassing its need for muscles with regards to voice).

However, if there's anything I've learned on these boards, it's that different DMs have different foibles regarding "realism." It seems that we all have little bits of realism that are important to us, regardless of the fact that any and all of them could be handwaved away by the simple phrase "It's magic."

So in this case, I won't judge Joker's DM deciding that skeletons not speaking is one of those little bits of realism that he wants.

I would hope, though, that Joker's DM would work with him to come up with a solution to the situation which was both acceptable to his sense of realism, and at the same time acceptable to Joker's vision of what he wants his PC's skeleton minion to be capable of.

 

[Nail]

... Skeletons don't have working muscles. They don't have lips (even dried-out, crusty ones,) or vocal cords or lungs. So one could extrapolate from that that skeletons cannot speak....

Can ghosts speak?

 

[lukelightning]

Ah, well, you don't understand the Horrible Secrets of Undeath! What I mean is that most intelligent undead have a soul of sorts (in fact, many are nothing but a soul). When a wraith speaks it is voiced from the soul...similarly, a lich or vampire has a soul, that is what gives it the ability to speak. But an awakened skeleton is still just a skeleton and lacks a soul. This is not any RAW interpretation, just a way to justify skeletons/zombies not speaking. Personally I feel awakened undead should be able to speak; if they can't the reason should not be "because they don't have tongues..."

And an awakened skeleton is very different from a lich; awakened undead specifically have no memories or skills of their previous life....perhaps not even the memory of how to speak!

But other undead CAN speak. It's in the RAW. Even "skeletal" undead.

Closer. ...but your hypothesis still falls apart.

How is an awakened skeleton different than a Lich (with respect to sentience)? Both have all their mental stats above 3 (or so ).

 

[Nail]

Ah, well, you don't understand the Horrible Secrets of Undeath!

True.

 

[Sejs]

And an awakened skeleton is very different from a lich; awakened undead specifically have no memories or skills of their previous life....perhaps not even the memory of how to speak!

Heh, why do I find myself going back to the old "A New You: A Guide to Creating New Souls in 10 Easy Steps" all of a sudden?

 

[Psion]

I think it's inappropriate to quibble about things like 'realism' when talking about undead and the things that they can or cannot do.

Yeah. The reminds me of SKR's argument that Fire Giants should have fire immunity because they are "creatures of flesh and blood."

 

[Hypersmurf]

And an awakened skeleton is very different from a lich; awakened undead specifically have no memories or skills of their previous life....perhaps not even the memory of how to speak!

Of course, as soon as their Int hits 3, they understand Common. So if they possess the ability but not the knowledge to speak, then raising the Int to 3 takes care of the knowledge problem.

I've never had to make this ruling, but a part of me understands where the DM is coming from. Skeletons don't have working muscles. They don't have lips (even dried-out, crusty ones,) or vocal cords or lungs. So one could extrapolate from that that skeletons cannot speak, whereas zombies and vampires and liches can.

But we have Video Evidence!

-Hyp.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, given that Awaken Undead is a 7th level spell I would certainly be in favor of the awakened skeleton being able to speak.

Now getting the darned thing to shut the heck up might be a separate question....

The Auld Grump

 

[andargor]

Wow, this thread is undead, and it speaks!!