Should WOTC participate in the ENnies?

[CaptainChaos]

If the ENnies were decided by jury, I'd say yes. As they are, no way.

EN World is a D&D fansite. Look at the 2002 results to see what that means.

http://www.ennieawards.com/2002.html

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

If the ENnies were decided by jury, I'd say yes. As they are, no way.

EN World is a D&D fansite. Look at the 2002 results to see what that means.

http://www.ennieawards.com/2002.html

Sure, WotC won just about every category that they entered, but I think products from other publishers has improved considerably since then, and people are likely more aware of and interested in products from other publishers now than they were five years ago.

I guess we won't know unless WotC submits products for consideration.

 

[ZombieButch]

Well, here's a thought for you - we have no rule against them entering. Right now, the system is voluntary submission. So, we would have to "fix" the unbroken system to prevent them entering, if they so chose.

What part of the system is more important - keeping WotC out, or keeping the integrity of the entry requirements?

I personally think that making arbitrary blocks against particular publishers would decrease the legitimacy of the awards - it would send a message the the 3rd party publishers cannot compete in quality, and need to be protected from the 800 pound gorilla.

I was in mid-thought formulating pretty much the exact response when I scrolled down to Umbran's. So, ditto.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I voted "no" and here's why:

1 -Reason #1 Third party press needs this commercial bump and attention; WotC does not.

So, one product gets bumped from the list, woohoo.

2Reason #2: Should WotC participate, the current strong legitimacy of the voting process would be eroded and undermined without corresponding benefit.

I think the opposite is true. Many of us don't vote right now, and consider the results meaningless, specifically because of the attitude that it's not a level playing field. Voting might be a popularity contest, but that doesn't somehow mean that the current winners of that popularity contest are more valid than if WotC won that popularity contest.

3 - If it's not broke don't fix it. <snip>Why ever would we feel the need to muck with it now?

The ENnies have changed noticeably almost every year I've looked at them. The idea that last years model is somehow the RIGHT model, is a bit of a stretch.

Reason #3: The Ennies enjoy great legitimacy currently and perform an admirable role in the industry. Let it be. If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

The ENnies enjoy a good measure of legitimacy currently because the RPG market is tiny, and they're probably the best of the otherwise worthless awards. The fact that they are barely important anyway is a result of the fact that RPG's don't have a solid core and the results are largely meaningless in regards to what people actually like or want.

The best the ENnies can hope for is to represent those that choose to be represented, and perhaps give some notice to products that otherwise wouldn't have it. The latter effect mitigated simply by the fact that a product is probably already dead, long before it gets nominated for an ENnie.

 

[mattcolville]

WotC already wins the most important prize every year. Their products make the most money. Why give them another prize?

 

[Morrus]

The ENnies enjoy a good measure of legitimacy currently because the RPG market is tiny, and they're probably the best of the otherwise worthless awards. The fact that they are barely important anyway is a result of the fact that RPG's don't have a solid core and the results are largely meaningless in regards to what people actually like or want.

The best the ENnies can hope for is to represent those that choose to be represented, and perhaps give some notice to products that otherwise wouldn't have it. The latter effect mitigated simply by the fact that a product is probably already dead, long before it gets nominated for an ENnie.

I like to think that there's another aspect which is underrated - the fact that it's nice to get an award as a recognition of what you've done. Publishers I've spoken to who have won awards have viewed it as a very personal thing; especially given that many of them could make more money by workng in another industry.

That aside - there's nothing to stop WotC from entering. We don't need to change anything to do that.

The judging/nomination process will eliminate WotC products which don't cut it by way of quality, so any product which gets nominated will do so because it deserves to be. The voting system also now takes into account the "only voting for something because you've heard of it" factor (funsangite can explain the mathematics behind that).

 

[fusangite]

WotC already wins the most important prize every year. Their products make the most money. Why give them another prize?

By that logic, we should disqualify Green Ronin for next year then. And then kick out the next most successful publisher every year following.

I think that people will value the awards more because they will feel that the small presses who do win went toe-to-toe with the very best in the industry. That will be good for the fans, good for the small presses and good for democracy, which is what the awards are all about. The more fans' votes resemble their actual preferences, everybody wins.

I think the crucial point here is that winning is not a zero-sum game.

If the ENnies were decided by jury, I'd say yes. As they are, no way.

EN World is a D&D fansite. Look at the 2002 results to see what that means.

I don't get the logic here.
(a) If this were true, it would be bad to include any D20 products in the awards, which is clearly not the case;
(b) If this were true, wouldn't D20 products always beat non-D20 products in the voting? The reason you're going back to 2002 to make a point here is because the awards of the past four years don't bear out this contention;
(c) This is a criticism of how the voting was done before 2006. But last year, the voting wasn't done on ENWorld, nor was it done on ENW this year. Furthermore, RPG.net, Storygames and TheForge all linked-to the awards, had candidate forum threads and delivered voters to the awards.

I like the fact that the Ennies are about obscure products. I have a bought a couple of products because of it, and was always pleasantly surprised.

So, Green Ronin's product line is "obscure"? The ENnies are most emphatically not obscure product awards. The fact that the awards include obscure products and that those products sometimes beat mainstream products doesn't somehow make the mainstream products against which they compete obscure.

3 - If it's not broke don't fix it.

True. Currently, any publisher that wishes to enter may do so. Why do you propose to change our long-standing system for entering the awards?

The Ennies have grown from a minor Web based award in a short span to become the leading award that a product in the RPG genre can obtain. Few would argue that the Origins award have greater legitimacy - indeed - most fans question them and roll their eyes, whether the award was appropriate or not. The Ennies have, to the contrary, been perceived as a great success story. Why ever would we feel the need to muck with it now?

We're not proposing to change a single thing about the ENnies. WOTC is proposing to change something about itself. To suddenly start excluding publishers who wish to enter is what would qualify as a change.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

WotC already wins the most important prize every year. Their products make the most money. Why give them another prize?

Because it's supposed to be for "Best RPG book" not "Best RPG Book From A Company With No More Than Two Dozen Employees". And the little guys have more than demonstrated that they are able to go toe-to-toe with WotC.


It'd be nice if WotC entered. But for the life of me I can't think of a business reason why they should. All they'd be doing is driving sales to other companies. I mean, it would be nice if WotC came over to my house and made me pancakes every morning, but I doubt they'll do that either.

 

[GlassJaw]

If anyone doesn't think WotC would bring more "legitamcy" to the ENnies, they are kidding themselves. The ENnies are great, and have certainly come a long way on what is essentially a grass-roots effort, but WotC would bring them up to another level.

If I was a small third-party published, I would WANT WotC products in the ENnies. Why? Because there's no doubt they would get a lot more attention. More people looking means more people noticing my product alongside a WotC product. I'm not even taking into account winning in a category alongside a WotC product.

 

[GlassJaw]

It'd be nice if WotC entered. But for the life of me I can't think of a business reason why they should.

How about industry goodwill? God knows the RPG industry needs it. If WotC can do something to show support for smaller publishers, I don't see how it hurts anyone involved, quite the opposite really. Smaller publishers get more attention, WotC further supports the hobby.