D&D General Should you clarify information to the detriment of the players?

[Quickleaf]

So a situation came up last session (and similar ones have come up before) where I as the DM clarified information to a player in order to help them execute a plan that had a very high chance of getting them killed.

The situation last session, for example, was players trying to break into a wizards tower via gaseous form. The front door was airtight but there was a window (which i had mentioned in the description) halfway up the tower that wasn't. The problem being going in the window would leave the player halfway through the dungeon alone. While they were debating i reminded them about the window (and clarified i wasnt suggesting they use it just supplying info their character would have). They ended up using the window nd it went very badly (end result was very close to a TPK).

so my question os in situations where doing so will likely lead to character/party death do you reiterate/remind players about information that will make it easier for them to proceed with a bad plan or keep quiet?

I'm going to follow my gut. Sounds like the party was entering a bit of analysis paralysis, you saw that happening, wanted to move things forward, and your approach to accomplish that was "hey there's that window, hint, hint."

There's no right or wrong move here. It's all about reading your players.

HOWEVER, I think you may be making the mistake of thinking that the ONLY way you could have shifted them out of analysis paralysis and kept scene moving was "hey there's that window, hint, hint." Because that's absolutely not true. That's a very leading approach - again, might be right in some circumstances, that's for you to judge. But there are many ways to encourage players' better angels and get them out of their heads.

For example, "Sounds like you're not sure how you want to proceed. Do you need more information from me?"

For example, "Hmm, well I give you all two minutes, however long it takes me to use the restroom and grab a drink. If you don't know what you're doing by then, maybe the guards will come out to greet you!"

 

[p_johnston]

To clarify specifics (easier when I'm not on mobile)

They knew the wizard was fairly powerful and they seemed cautious of infiltrating the tower, assuming it would be dangerous. One player had encountered the wizard in his backstory and knew he was dangerous.

They were in front of the tower and the window would have been obvious to any of their characters, but the players seemed to have forgotten about/heard it in the descriptive text

Before they went in I pointed out that they were going into a window 60 feet up which meant they would be starting on the third or fourth floor at least. When they entered I also asked them if gaseous form made them immune or resistant to damage (which seemed to make them pause but not stop). The first thing they saw were also two huge dead birdlike creatures

The door wouldn't open because the handle had been ripped off. In specific the door had a hole in it like something had been ripped off with great force, there were a bunch of huge footprints around, and they had heard rumors of giants in the area so they had leads on ways to get into the tower without sending a person in alone.

I will also say I generally have tried to stop saying "are you sure?" because that tends to be the same as me just saying "thats a bad plan" and I try not to direct the players that much. I do sometimes just restate the plan to them so they can hear it laid out and if it sounds stupid (which I forgot to do this time).

I was just curious about other peoples takes on situations like this because it wasn't until after the session that I realized that if I simply hadn't reminded them about the window there is a very good chance they decide to follow the giant footsteps instead and 1) have a much easier time 2) find some loot and 3) don't split the party.

 

[Umbran]

I like to take into account a few things in such situations:

1) Stated intent. If the players state no more forethought than "get in the building", well, that's too bad. But if they state the intent to go in the window and come back down to open the front door for the rest, then I might well tell them, "It looks like you can get in that window, but you've got no idea how hard it'll be to get back to the door."

2) The Intelligence, Wisdom (and in social situations, Charisma), and relevant skills and backgrounds of the characters involved. I will sometimes ask for a check (or use a passive checks) to note glaring questions. This is to represent that the characters likely know more about things in their world than the players do. Like, "Why did the wizard go through all the trouble of making a door airtight, but then have a window that was not airtight within reach?"

 

[p_johnston]

I'm going to follow my gut. Sounds like the party was entering a bit of analysis paralysis, you saw that happening, wanted to move things forward, and your approach to accomplish that was "hey there's that window, hint, hint."

I think that may be how they took it was what I was considering after. My thinking at the time was "they seem to want to do this particular plan and there is a peice of information that would be obvious to their characters but that the players seem to have forgotten."

I believe I even explicitly said (which I usually do) "This is not me trying to tell your character what to do or suggesting this path. I am simply reminding you of a fact that your character would know even if the player might have forgotten."

 

[Oofta]

To clarify specifics (easier when I'm not on mobile)

They knew the wizard was fairly powerful and they seemed cautious of infiltrating the tower, assuming it would be dangerous. One player had encountered the wizard in his backstory and knew he was dangerous.

They were in front of the tower and the window would have been obvious to any of their characters, but the players seemed to have forgotten about/heard it in the descriptive text

Before they went in I pointed out that they were going into a window 60 feet up which meant they would be starting on the third or fourth floor at least. When they entered I also asked them if gaseous form made them immune or resistant to damage (which seemed to make them pause but not stop). The first thing they saw were also two huge dead birdlike creatures

The door wouldn't open because the handle had been ripped off. In specific the door had a hole in it like something had been ripped off with great force, there were a bunch of huge footprints around, and they had heard rumors of giants in the area so they had leads on ways to get into the tower without sending a person in alone.

I will also say I generally have tried to stop saying "are you sure?" because that tends to be the same as me just saying "thats a bad plan" and I try not to direct the players that much. I do sometimes just restate the plan to them so they can hear it laid out and if it sounds stupid (which I forgot to do this time).

I was just curious about other peoples takes on situations like this because it wasn't until after the session that I realized that if I simply hadn't reminded them about the window there is a very good chance they decide to follow the giant footsteps instead and 1) have a much easier time 2) find some loot and 3) don't split the party.

I likely would have handled it much the same. If the party wants to do something stupid, let them. If they're standing in front of the tower wondering what to do I would likely just list the options they have (including the tracks), but other than that it's up to them to come up with a plan. Sometimes it works out well, even better than I had expected, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[overgeeked]

@p_johnston It's not clear from the description in the OP to what extent you communicated the possible risks to the player characters.

To me, saying things like “the dungeon is dangerous and filled with magic, monsters, and traps” or “the wizard’s tower is dangerous and filled with magic, monsters, and traps” is on par with saying “water is wet” and “fire is hot.” The player might forget their character is on the 12th floor of a tower and need to be reminded of that fact, but no player should need to told or reminded that dungeons are dangerous and wizard towers are not to be trifled with.

 

[Composer99]

To me, saying things like “the dungeon is dangerous and filled with magic, monsters, and traps” or “the wizard’s tower is dangerous and filled with magic, monsters, and traps” is on par with saying “water is wet” and “fire is hot.” The player might forget their character is on the 12th floor of a tower and need to be reminded of that fact, but no player should need to told or reminded that dungeons are dangerous and wizard towers are not to be trifled with.

I mean, you're not wrong, strictly speaking - but, well, it's all too easy to forget, or misinterpret remarks, etc.

By way of example from another domain, I personally have never - not once - had any difficulty navigating either the website of the charity I work for or the online platform we use to manage music festival registrations. It'd be easy for me to assume how to do those things just ought to be obvious or go without saying.

When a few dozen folks tell me otherwise - that they do have difficulties navigating those sites - I'm not prepared to gainsay them: I'm not there, sitting at their computer, able to see what's going on and therefore diagnose whether their difficulties are "merely" user error or point to some UI or presentation issue.

And so, I'm not prepared to completely agree that "dungeons are dangerous and wizard towers are not to be trifled with" ought to go without saying - even in a game where venturing into dangerous dungeons is literally in the name!

 

[GMMichael]

. . . so my question os in situations where doing so will likely lead to character/party death do you reiterate/remind players about information that will make it easier for them to proceed with a bad plan or keep quiet?

The door wouldn't open because the handle had been ripped off. In specific the door had a hole in it . . .

How is this air tight?

I know: magic. Sure, it's a wizard's front door, but if the window was "halfway through the dungeon," then the tower is something you planned and expected the PCs to enter . . . so what clues did you provide about the 1 st level entry to the tower that they were supposed to use?

 

[overgeeked]

I mean, you're not wrong, strictly speaking - but, well, it's all too easy to forget, or misinterpret remarks, etc.

And so, I'm not prepared to completely agree that "dungeons are dangerous and wizard towers are not to be trifled with" ought to go without saying - even in a game where venturing into dangerous dungeons is literally in the name!

Note how what’s above is wildly different than what’s below.

By way of example from another domain, I personally have never - not once - had any difficulty navigating either the website of the charity I work for or the online platform we use to manage music festival registrations. It'd be easy for me to assume how to do those things just ought to be obvious or go without saying.

When a few dozen folks tell me otherwise - that they do have difficulties navigating those sites - I'm not prepared to gainsay them: I'm not there, sitting at their computer, able to see what's going on and therefore diagnose whether their difficulties are "merely" user error or point to some UI or presentation issue.

Yes, players in a game that’s literally about fighting monsters and making dangerous delves into dungeons and other nasty places should 100% know that there are, in fact, dangerous things ahead.

No, random people who happen across a website should not be expected to have the same level of detailed and in-depth familiarity with the site as an employee of the company whose website it is.

The website would be comparable to expecting the players to know the precise layout of the tower despite never having gone there before nor investigated it in any way. Expecting the players to know that dangerous things exist in a game about fighting dangerous things is akin to statements that water is wet and fire is hot.

They’re in different galaxies.

 

[p_johnston]

How is this air tight?

I know: magic. Sure, it's a wizard's front door, but if the window was "halfway through the dungeon," then the tower is something you planned and expected the PCs to enter . . . so what clues did you provide about the 1 st level entry to the tower that they were supposed to use?

The doorknob was a spinning wheel (think submarine or vault door) where the wheel was ripped off but the door was still intact (the hole didn't go the whole way through). I did mention that they could try and go inside the door and navigate through the interior mechanism if they desired.

As for the first level entry they had the footprints to follow and had heard rumors about giants in the area before hand (they giants did have the wheel).

If anyone is wondering I'm running a conversion of the Iron Gods adventure path from pathfinder to A5e. The tower itself is home to a smoke mage who runs a variety of tests on various smoke/air creatures which is why the doors in the tower are specifically called out as being airtight.