Shouldn't Miracle have an XP component?

[nwn_deadman]

Actually, I do enjoy education, but that is not what this is.
This is more like watching the Keystone cops.

It is clear you have zero clue about magic item creation.

Making a flaming sword is not one of the abilities of the fireball spell. But the spell does qualify as a prerequisite for the magic item. Please show me a rule that states that a spell can do anything that an item using that spell as a prereq can do. You can not do that because the rule does not exist.

The DMG does not anywhere state that Miracle can give a bonus to abilties.

But thanks for the laugh. To bad, like most jokes, it was only funny the first time.

So you say that Miracle is NOT a pre-req to make a tome or manual then...

 

[Zhure]

It takes...
...Limited Wish to make Armor of Fortification
... Stoneskin, Wish or Miracle to make Armor of Invulnerability
... Wish or Miracle to make a Luck Blade
... Limited Wish to make a Ring of Wizardry

... therefore, using your logic, a Wish or a Miracle could be used to create the ability granted by armor of invulnerability. But it cannot be used to wish for that specific item since it's a +3 equivalent which (along with the necessary +1 enchantment) makes it cost 16,000 gp, above the amount allowed by Wish.

Limited Wish likewise cannot grant the same effects as a Ring of Wizardry.

Hope that helps,
Greg

 

[kreynolds]

So you say that Miracle is NOT a pre-req to make a tome or manual then...

Pull your head outta your <wonk>. That is not what he said.

 

[nwn_deadman]

It takes...
...Limited Wish to make Armor of Fortification
... Stoneskin, Wish or Miracle to make Armor of Invulnerability
... Wish or Miracle to make a Luck Blade
... Limited Wish to make a Ring of Wizardry

... therefore, using your logic, a Wish or a Miracle could be used to create the ability granted by armor of invulnerability. But it cannot be used to wish for that specific item since it's a +3 equivalent which (along with the necessary +1 enchantment) makes it cost 16,000 gp, above the amount allowed by Wish.

Limited Wish likewise cannot grant the same effects as a Ring of Wizardry.

Hope that helps,
Greg

That may be the case, but...

The rules even say that you could wish for a staff of power/magi doesn't it?

Does that mean that you’re going to get it?

You have to work in the constraints of the spells powers.

You are pointing out spells and items that do not have the same characteristics as the example that I have stated.

A tome +1 and a scroll of Wish or Miracle do not cost the same, but a scroll of Wish and Miracle do cost the same.

 

[Zhure]

That may be the case, but...

The rules even say that you could wish for a staff of power/magi doesn't it?

No, in fact, it specifically says "A wish can do any one of the following: Create a valuable item, even a magic item, of up to 15,000 gp in value. "

You have to work in the constraints of the spells powers.

You are pointing out spells and items that do not have the same characteristics as the example that I have stated.

This is the same point everyone else is trying to make. You have to work within the constraints of Miracle. It doesn't grant inherent bonuses to characteristics any more than casting Continual Flame on a sword will make it a Ghost Touch weapon.

A tome +1 and a scroll of Wish or Miracle do not cost the same, but a scroll of Wish and Miracle do cost the same.

A Miracle scroll costs 28,825 gp, with a footnote mentioning "Assumes powerful request but no expensive material components in excess of 100 gp and no additional XP cost."

A Wish scroll costs 28,825 gp, with a footnore mentioning, "Assumes no material component cost in excess of 10,000 gp and no XP cost in excess of 5,000 XP." Both amount to about the same thing, except the modifications based on the XP expenditure required for both assuming they are used for spells that don't have their own XP (i.e., using Wish/Miracle to cast Awaken). It could even be said the Wish is a better bargain, since it allows for 100 times the material component.

The stat block for the various tomes is identical: "Caster Level: 17th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Market Price: 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), or 137,500 gp (+5); Cost to Create: 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), or 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight: 5 lb."

So, yes, a +1 Tome costs less than a scroll of Miracle or Wish, but the scroll is far more flexible as it can be used for other things. If you've already got a +1 inherent bonus to a characteristic, that related tome has no value to the character, save as a bargaining tool or a trade item to another character. The scroll would still have a lot of personal usefulness.

Hope that helps,
Greg

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Pull your head outta your <wonk>. That is not what he said.

Thanks.

But if he can find rules in the DMG that aren't there, I'm certain he can find statements in my words that aren't there.

 

[nwn_deadman]

CAN YOU NOT READ THE POST ABOVE

IT CLEARLY STATES THAT MIRACLE CAN DO THE SAME THING THAT WISH CAN, and I did not even post it.

Look at all the magic items that have wish as a pre-req spell and I am sure that most (if not all) are going to have Miracle there too.

If you cannot relate that to the point that Miracle and Wish are EVENLY POWERED SPELLS = They can both do just about the same things...

This does not mean the EXACT same things, but in the case of granting ability gains, it is logical that it does.

 

[kreynolds]

CAN YOU NOT READ THE POST ABOVE

IT CLEARLY STATES THAT MIRACLE CAN DO THE SAME THING THAT WISH CAN, and I did not even post it.

Look at all the magic items that have wish as a pre-req spell and I am sure that most (if not all) are going to have Miracle there too.

If you cannot relate that to the point that Miracle and Wish are EVENLY POWERED SPELLS = They can both do just about the same things...

This does not mean the EXACT same things, but in the case of granting ability gains, it is logical that it does.

Nope.

 

[nwn_deadman]

Forget it, it is hopeless to bother to sway you non-beleivers...

Since you cannot think for yourself, might you just go ask the sage or some other wotc peeps to help ya?

 

[kreynolds]

Since you cannot think for yourself, might you just go ask the sage or some other wotc peeps to help ya?

Actually, we can think for ourselves. You're just posing a really crappy argument that holds about as much water as a spaghetti strainer. That's all.

Look at it like this. The power to heal is highly reserved for divine magic, and very, very difficult and costly for an arcane magic user to pull off. Healing is reserved in this way to create a defining line that separates arcane magic from divine magic. It encourages uniqueness between the two types of magic and the classes that use such magic. In the case of miracle vs. wish, that same separation and uniqueness applies. For instance, a wish spell can be used to attempt to change the outcome of one single event, such as rerolling a saving throw, for example. But that's the best you can get with wish in regards to changing the outcome of an event. However, miracle can be used to change the entire outcome of a full-scale and gigantic battle. This is the defining line between to two spells. This is the line that separates the power of divine magic and arcane magic. Or do you disagree?