Shouldn't Miracle have an XP component?

[nwn_deadman]

20th level cleric: God I would like to impart an ability score increase indirectly (into a tome or manual) to any person out there

God: Ok

20th level cleric: Thanks God

Another Example where a Deity WOULD grant the increase

20th level cleric: God I would like to impart an ability score increase directly to this person (he happens to be of the same alignment, etc)

God: Ok

Another Example where a Deity WOULD NOT grant the increase

20th level cleric: Thanks God

20th level cleric: God I would like to impart an ability score increase directly to this person (he happens to be of an opposed alignment, etc)

God: No

20th level cleric: Thanks God

If you people had any critical thinking skills of your own you might have come up with a scenario like this to portray YOUR arguments...

Instead you make attacks on MY person.

Try to THINK for a change rynolds, axomic and others instead of posting quotes from the book and saying like Nope.

PS

The smaller the word choice that you have, the smaller your IQ is likely to be...

 

[kreynolds]

20th level cleric: God I would like to impart an ability score increase indirectly (into a tome or manual) to any person out there

God: Ok

20th level cleric: Thanks God

Another Example where a Deity WOULD grant the increase

20th level cleric: God I would like to impart an ability score increase directly to this person (he happens to be of the same alignment, etc)

God: Ok

Another Example where a Deity WOULD NOT grant the increase

20th level cleric: Thanks God

20th level cleric: God I would like to impart an ability score increase directly to this person (he happens to be of an opposed alignment, etc)

God: No

20th level cleric: Thanks God

If you people had any critical thinking skills of your own you might have come up with a scenario like this to portray YOUR arguments...

Instead you make attacks on MY person.

Try to THINK for a change rynolds, axomic and others instead of posting quotes from the book and saying like Nope.

PS

The smaller the word choice that you have, the smaller your IQ is likely to be...

Nope.

 

[Oni]

As dangerous as it might be at this point, I'm going to throw my opinion into the ring.

The second function of wish, the one requiring xp, is very open ended, it is an act of god (albeit one requested by a divine agent). I am of the opinion that miracle *could* increase a stat as there are examples given, but that does not exclude other effects, after all a god can pretty much do what they want. However as a caveat I will add that I can't really think of any circumstances where a god would grant such a request, even though they could.

So basically its not that it couldn't be done with Miracle technically, its just that in pratice that is a request that would never be granted. It is a fine distinction, but one I think that is worth making.

 

[Zhure]

Once more into the breech

First the issue of what Miracle does:

The character doesn’t so much cast a miracle as request one. The character states what the character would like to have happen and requests that the character's deity (or the power the character prays to for spells) intercede. The DM then determines the particular effect of the miracle.

So far, sounds like a stat increase is possible.

A miracle can do any of the following:

-Duplicate any cleric spell of up to 8th level (including spells to which the character has access because of the character's domains).

Well, it normally takes a Wish to grant inherent bonuses. Wish is 9th level, Miracle can't duplicate Wish. And Wish is an arcane spell (unless the Cleric has a Domain of Magic).

-Duplicate any other spell of up to 7th level.

The closest would be Limited Wish, which I think we all can agree won't do it either.

Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.

Sorry, nothing there.

Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

The question then is, "does granting a permanent inherent bonus in line with the above examples?"
The answer is "no." Since it takes a Wish to grant a permanent inherent bonus, and Miracle can't emulate a Wish, then no.

If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it carries no experience point cost.

So, assuming Miracle *can* grant a permanent inherent bonus, it will cost experience points.

Alternatively, the cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. A request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

So, a deity would grant an inherent bonus to a stat if it is in line with the deity's nature, domains, or alignment. Would a deity of Strength and War grant an increase in STR? I'd rule so. Would he grant a bonus to WIS? Perhaps. It is after all one aspect of the deity, to grant WIS. CHA? Maybe, depends on the backstory of the deity. DEX? It could well be the deity is famed for his agility. INT? Probably not, but again it depends on the aspects of the deity, the deity's history and mythology. Each characteristic would have to be scrutinized on a case-by-case basis. Each time casting would cost 5,000 XP.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and SR as normal (but save DCs are for a 9th-level spell). When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, the character must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, the character must provide that component.

XP Cost: 5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).

Patently, any use for inherent bonuses would cost XP.

Now the issue of Craft Wondrous Item, Miracle and Tomes/Books/Librams. It isn't necessary to cast Miracle to craft a Book. The spell need only be prepared and the slot is expended, so there's no XP cost other than the XP used in the manufacture of the item because Miracle is never cast in the first place. What Miracle can and cannot do is unrelated, as is demonstrated in numerous examples in the item creation process. (See earlier posts).

Maintaining that Miracle automatically grants the abilities of Wish when the spell description doesn't say anything of the like is nonsensical to me. That's like saying Greater Emulation allows one to use the rules for Wish, because the two abilities are congruent. They aren't identical; each has slightly different characteristics.

Hope that helps,
Greg

 

[nwn_deadman]

Maintaining that Miracle automatically grants the abilities of Wish when the spell description doesn't say anything of the like is nonsensical to me. That's like saying Greater Emulation allows one to use the rules for Wish, because the two abilities are congruent. They aren't identical; each has slightly different characteristics.

Hope that helps,
Greg

Who says that granting an ability score increase is the sole domain of the spell Wish?

 

[Zhure]

Who says that granting an ability score increase is the sole domain of the spell Wish?

That would be the spell list says that.

Only Wish and the various magical tomes grant an inherent bonus, which is what we're talking about. Enhancement bonuses are granted by numerous spells.

Greg

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Nope.

LOL, and me I always thought people dependent on big words had the low IQs. Picking the appropriate words to fit an audience, now that's BIG BRAIN POWER.

 

[nwn_deadman]

Can you EXPLAIN why Miracle IS listed as a prereq for a Tome or Manual?

Seems to me that none of you that say that Miracle cannot grant the increase has come up with ANYTHING to the contrary.

Just because Miracle does not say that it can does not mean that it cannot.

If any of you can site a passage that says that Wish is the SOLE power that can grant the increase then I will take that, as Miracle cannot grant.

I suppose none of you that staunchly say that Miracle cannot has the ability to EXTRAPOLATE from a source (Tome or Manual) that HAS Miracle as a prereq to get the point that Miracle CAN/COULD grant the ability increase?

 

[Zhure]

Can you EXPLAIN why Miracle IS listed as a prereq for a Tome or Manual?

Because the designers wanted Clerics to be able to make the various tomes. That would be a guess; nothing in the rules supports that opinion but you could ask some of them.

Seems to me that none of you that say that Miracle cannot grant the increase has come up with ANYTHING to the contrary.

Please refer to earlier posts.

Just because Miracle does not say that it can does not mean that it cannot.

Yes, it does. The Fly spell doesn't say you can shoot fire out of your sphincters, thus, the Fly spell won't let you shoot fire out of your sphincters.

If any of you can site a passage that says that Wish is the SOLE power that can grant the increase then I will take that, as Miracle cannot grant.

Yes, I can. Read the entire PH, DMG, MM, PsiHB. That's my quote. Nothing else save Wish and the tomes grants an inherent stat bonus. (The Forsaker does, but as a PrC in MoTW.)

I suppose none of you that staunchly say that Miracle cannot has the ability to EXTRAPOLATE from a source (Tome or Manual) that HAS Miracle as a prereq to get the point that Miracle CAN/COULD grant the ability increase?

I already addressed this. It's clearly marked above. I shan't quote myself. To recap: depends on the deity and should be considered on a case-by-case basis, and will cost XP.

Greg

 

[Zhure]

(At least I'm getting a good laugh out of this. Maybe it'll let me stay awake through the Oscars.)