Shouldn't Miracle have an XP component?

[kreynolds]

Can you EXPLAIN why Miracle IS listed as a prereq for a Tome or Manual?

Seems to me that none of you that say that Miracle cannot grant the increase has come up with ANYTHING to the contrary.

Just because Miracle does not say that it can does not mean that it cannot.

If any of you can site a passage that says that Wish is the SOLE power that can grant the increase then I will take that, as Miracle cannot grant.

I suppose none of you that staunchly say that Miracle cannot has the ability to EXTRAPOLATE from a source (Tome or Manual) that HAS Miracle as a prereq to get the point that Miracle CAN/COULD grant the ability increase?

Geez man! This was already covered! All of it!

Oh...almost forgot...

Nope.

 

[Al]

nwn_deadman: A logical argument for you (I posted a variant a couple of pages ago, but you did not deign to answer.)

A Miracle is a prerequisite for the creation of a Tome of X, which grants an inherent ability score bonus. At no point does it actually state that miracle is cast during its creation- therefore, it is implicit that a cleric whom can request miracles of his deity has reached a power level such that his deity will aid him in the creation of a magical item. In return, the caster must pay 5000XP per inherent bonus increase.
At no point in the DMG does it states that having the appropriate prerequisite spell means that the spell is cast during the creation- ergo, Miracle is not necessarily cast during the manufacture of the book in question- but that the fact that the cleric has access to Miracle means that he has the capability to craft the book. The ability to cast Miracle is required, but this may be merely to request his god to help craft the book- it does not infer that either a) Miracle is cast and hence b) Miracle can grant inherent bonuses. Just because the Miracle enables you to craft an item which grants the corresponding power, it does not necessarily mean that it can simulate the power of the item crafted. A wish could, conceivably, generate a +2 Headband of Intellect. It cannot generate a +2 enhancement bonus on an individual ad infinitum.

The second counter-argument is that the spell prerequisite does not duplicate the item when the spell is cast normally. There are a myriad of strong examples listed already, so I won't bother to reiterate them. The case of fireball not being able to replicate a flaming weapon when cast in a combat, but being a prerequisite for a flaming weapon creation is one such example.

I hope this is a logical argument that would sate your standards.

Alternately,

OF COURSE IT DOESN'T WORK? Are YOU STUPID?!!!
IT's LIKE TALKING TO CHILDREN HERE!!!

Sometimes, you GUYS ARE FEEBLEMINDED!!! and you can't even spell DEITY SOME OF THE TIME!!! (page 4, nwn_deadman)

Incidentally, PHRENOLOGY! AUTOHAGIOGRAPHICAL! BROBDIGNAGIAN! PREANTEPENULTIMATE! ESTERIFICATION! I have a LONG vocablurary, therefore MUST BE CLEVER. THEREFORE, must be RIGHT!!! You guys are STUPID!

may be more your style...

 

[nwn_deadman]

nwn_deadman: A logical argument for you (I posted a variant a couple of pages ago, but you did not deign to answer.)

A Miracle is a prerequisite for the creation of a Tome of X, which grants an inherent ability score bonus. At no point does it actually state that miracle is cast during its creation- therefore, it is implicit that a cleric whom can request miracles of his deity has reached a power level such that his deity will aid him in the creation of a magical item. In return, the caster must pay 5000XP per inherent bonus increase.
At no point in the DMG does it states that having the appropriate prerequisite spell means that the spell is cast during the creation- ergo, Miracle is not necessarily cast during the manufacture of the book in question- but that the fact that the cleric has access to Miracle means that he has the capability to craft the book. The ability to cast Miracle is required, but this may be merely to request his god to help craft the book- it does not infer that either a) Miracle is cast and hence b) Miracle can grant inherent bonuses. Just because the Miracle enables you to craft an item which grants the corresponding power, it does not necessarily mean that it can simulate the power of the item crafted. A wish could, conceivably, generate a +2 Headband of Intellect. It cannot generate a +2 enhancement bonus on an individual ad infinitum.

The second counter-argument is that the spell prerequisite does not duplicate the item when the spell is cast normally. There are a myriad of strong examples listed already, so I won't bother to reiterate them. The case of fireball not being able to replicate a flaming weapon when cast in a combat, but being a prerequisite for a flaming weapon creation is one such example.

I hope this is a logical argument that would sate your standards.

Alternately,

OF COURSE IT DOESN'T WORK? Are YOU STUPID?!!!
IT's LIKE TALKING TO CHILDREN HERE!!!

Sometimes, you GUYS ARE FEEBLEMINDED!!! and you can't even spell DEITY SOME OF THE TIME!!! (page 4, nwn_deadman)

Incidentally, PHRENOLOGY! AUTOHAGIOGRAPHICAL! BROBDIGNAGIAN! PREANTEPENULTIMATE! ESTERIFICATION! I have a LONG vocablurary, therefore MUST BE CLEVER. THEREFORE, must be RIGHT!!! You guys are STUPID!

may be more your style...

NO you are missing the point...

Fireball has but one effect, a fireball...

Wish AND Miracle are OPEN ENDED SPELLS...

This means that they can take MANY FORMS...

This means that they can do more than 1 thing... (UNLIKE FIREBALL) which you don't seem to undersand?

If you had the LOGICAL SENCE THAT I HAVE you would have KEYED IN on this and NOT some NONSENSE that you have...

PS

I might have forgot to spell check my work, but I KNOW you did too... (Many errors on your part as well, So don't go getting a big head...)

 

[nwn_deadman]

Had enough fun attacking me?

What you don't seem to understand is that you are still attacking me and not the argument.

Nice try but as I said before, you are comparing apples to oranges with fireball and wish/miracle...

Also, since the POWER or Wish/Miracle is needed to create the tomes/manuals and you must have the spell slot "used" in the process... that means that WITHOUT Miracle (or Wish) you could not make the item.

Put it this way, the POWER or Miracle is what is making the items, nothing else matters but that (aside from caster level, but you cannot cast Miracle unless you have the caster level req.)

How can you say that it is immaterial that Miracle is listed as NECESSARY to create the item, when making the case the Miracle COULD grant an ability increase on its own?

 

[kreynolds]

nwn_deadman, just email The Sage and be done with it.

 

[nwn_deadman]

nwn_deadman, just email The Sage and be done with it.

Gee, after all that you can respond with more than a belittlement or a snub.

Maybe I will send it in, haven't had the need to so far...

 

[enrious]

As dangerous as it might be at this point, I'm going to throw my opinion into the ring.

The second function of wish, the one requiring xp, is very open ended, it is an act of god (albeit one requested by a divine agent). I am of the opinion that miracle *could* increase a stat as there are examples given, but that does not exclude other effects, after all a god can pretty much do what they want. However as a caveat I will add that I can't really think of any circumstances where a god would grant such a request, even though they could.

So basically its not that it couldn't be done with Miracle technically, its just that in pratice that is a request that would never be granted. It is a fine distinction, but one I think that is worth making.

Oni, as dangerous as it is at this point, let me comment on your opinion.

I think many of us don't dispute the fact that Miracle could perhaps allow for a stat increase, but much of the argument stems from a juvie hall escapee insisting that it's clear-cut black and white that it can.

I have yet to see any canon evidence that says Miracle can give such an increase (save from some very specious logic regarding item prerequisites) but at the same time, I think you make a valid point as to some reasoning that would allow it, if only in theory.

 

[Anders]

....Bearded women in dresses can cast 9th level spells, but can't copy your version of Miracle.

I didn't say that.

I said: "...mortal beardwearers in woman's clothing...".*
________________________
*which can, of course, induce the urge to give females beard while wearing dresses**.
**But it could also mean wizards*** in general.
***The thought of females with beards might suggest that a miracle might indeed be the salvation for your games (PHB-like or not).

...So if you want to let Miracle be more powerful than a 9th level spell in you epic level game, Cool!!. But that has not impact on the true ability of the 9th level spell Miracle.

The only true ability of miracle is that you decide what it is capable of if you are a DM. But, perhaps it would take a miracle to convince you that miracle indeed can change ability scores (if your DM lets you that is).

Truth isn't always as it is written. It is an approximation.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Had enough fun attacking me?

What you don't seem to understand is that you are still attacking me and not the argument.

Well, your arguement has already been destroyed, there isn't much left to say about that.

Nice try but as I said before, you are comparing apples to oranges with fireball and wish/miracle...

Misrepresenting what other people say does not make you right.

Your first point was that the prereq for the various Tomes including Miracle means that Miracle can produce the effect. The fireball example completely disproved this arguement.

Also, since the POWER or Wish/Miracle is needed to create the tomes/manuals and you must have the spell slot "used" in the process... that means that WITHOUT Miracle (or Wish) you could not make the item.

Put it this way, the POWER or Miracle is what is making the items, nothing else matters but that (aside from caster level, but you cannot cast Miracle unless you have the caster level req.)

How can you say that it is immaterial that Miracle is listed as NECESSARY to create the item, when making the case the Miracle COULD grant an ability increase on its own?

The same way it is immaterial that fireball is listed as NECESSARY to create a flaming sword to the claim that a fireball can be cast durign combat to make a flaming sword on the spot.

Ignoring this point and screaming don't change anything.

 

[Artoomis]

Very nice argument above, Zhure. The same one I would have used to state:

Of course Miracle can grant inherent bonsues to stats. Per the spell, it would cost 5,000 Exp Pts and only be granted if the DM decided the diety in question was of a mind to grant it. It is even possible to grant more than one point of an inherent bonus, if the DM thinks the diety feels like it. Heck - you might ask for one point and get five, if the DM wants to (I wouldn't, but in specific circumstances it MIGHT be appropriate). This is one of the real advantages of being a cleric - though it works both ways - sometimes you get nothing, or worse, if your god is upset with you. You might even get a previous inherent bonus removed!

Miracle is exceptionally open-ended, even more so than Wish, but limited by the fact that it is a "request" that may or may not be granted. I would assume that gods really don't like being disturbed too often, either, so that's another balancing factor.

This is really so simple - read the spell. Anything not specifically listed may be granted with a 5,000 exp pt cost if the DM feels like having the diety grant it.

Since you are "asking" the diety for something, anything can happen. The 5,000 exp. pt. uses should probably be used only with extreme caution - it might be better to wait until you've accomplished something worthy of such a reward.