Sick of Magic Missile

[Arkhandus]

The intelligent one who picked the weaker targets and either killed or crippled them in a round or two. The barbarians a joke. If he comes after you just take a defensive posture with expertise until his rage runs out. Then beat him senseless. Thats and option that every character with an intelligence over 13 has. The same cant be said for magic missle. Dont forget that rogues only average 3 HP per level, con might push it higher but usually not by much. So at the level the mage gets 5th level spells he can usually kill a rogue in two or three rounds without worrying about evasion or saving throws. Wizards and sorcerers do even worse after being dispelled of thier shield spells.

On a side not have you actually looked at the crap pile that 5th level spells are? They are only usefull as metamagic slots. Teleport, hold monster and dominate are the only things even remotely usefull most of the time and teleport and dominate are situation specific.

Baleful Polymorph or Phantasmal Killer can be nasty. A 9th-level transmuter wizard nearly defeated a juvenile green dragon in one of my campaigns merely by casting Baleful Polymorph; the dragon made its Will save and so became an iguana with dragon-brains, and one of its minions dispelled the Baleful Polymorph after that, but otherwise it would've been a goner. The transmuter still had plenty of Phantasmal Killers prepared though, and began trying those; the dragon likely would've died after a few rounds of rolling saves against that death spell, because one save would likely come up short out of all of those. Ice Storm can be pretty effective too, though not quite as good for slaying a single tough foe.

27 damage from a combination Quickened MM and Maximized MM is nothing. A 9th-level wizard can easily cast a single Empowered Fireball and deal 9d6+50% (generally 42+) damage to a large area, at the cost of one spell slot only, and few enemy mages will make the save for half damage (and even those that do, will typically have around 20-38 HP unless they have really frickin' high Constitution, if of similar level, and a lower level mage may as well not care whether or not he makes the save, because he'll probably still perish). An enemy rogue might make the save; generally DC 17 or 18 probably, and a rogue of similar level probably has +9 or +10 on Reflex saves. A Heightened Fireball may be better against rogues (DC 20 or thereabouts). But then, against a rogue, that's what a Phantasmal Killer is for; pood sod with crud for Fort and Will saves......

A Maximized Acid Arrow is also quite effective against an enemy mage. Magic Missile is most certainly not overpowered at middle and upper levels. Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow will likely deal more damage then, with or without metamagic. Heck, a Maximized + Enlarged Burning Hands, combined with a Quickened + Enlarged Burning Hands, could deal 30+ damage to a swath of enemies nearby, as opposed to that magic missile combo dealing 27 damage to one enemy from a distance. The BH combo will wipe out a fair number of mooks, the MM combo will somewhat maim a single tougher enemy or slightly maim a couple of mooks.

A 9th-level barbarian.....lessee. Half-orc, 22 Str (18 +2 racial +2 from levels 4 & 8), Power Attack, Weapon Focus, etc. Likely a +3 greataxe lets say. Raging. Attacks at +21/+16 without PA, deals 1d12+15 damage per hit. 9th-level rogue: halfling, 22 Dex, Dodge and Expertise feats. +3 studded leather let's assume. AC 23/24, 28/29 max. Even with full Expertise and Dodge going, the rogue still gets hit by the barbarian's 1st attack most rounds, and sometimes the 2nd attack. Barbarian power attacks for -2/+4, still hits quite often. Rogue takes 20-31 (avg 26) damage most rounds, sometimes 40-62 (if hit twice). Rogue has 39 HP maybe, 57 HP if unusually tough for his archetype. Dies on round 2 or 3, or round 1 if barbarian crits, or round 1 if barbarian hits with both attacks and rolls well on damage for one. Winner: Average (well, marginally min-maxed) barbarian, on round 1, 2, or 3, against rather capable and well-outfitted rogue. The rogue might have another +1 to +3 AC from magic items if he's lucky, in which case he's just more likely to die on round 3 or 4. The barbarian would kill a mage instantly or nearly so. The rogue hardly fares much better.

I don't see a problem with the mage dealing 27 damage per round at the expense of a 4th-level and 5th-level slot each time using metamagicked Magic Missiles. Even less so with non-enhanced Magic Missiles. Nor dealing 42 damage per round with a single 5th-level slot each time (of which, the 9th-level mage will only have 1 or 2, maybe 3 at best).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How do I deal with Magic Missile as a DM? Well I NEVER nerf it.

Instead, I either:

1) COMPLETELY control which spells are available in the game. You may start off with it or you may not -either determined randomly or I put serious thought into how the player described his magical tutelage and give you a list to pick from. And finding new spells is just like finding treasure- you never know what you're going to get.

or

2) All spells are freely available and NPCs are just as likely to use the spell as anyone else. Imagine the surprise a high-level party has when their Globe of Invulnerability gets dropped and the BBEG's students all launch Magic Missile at them...

How do I deal with Magic Missile as a player?

I almost never use Magic Missile (or Sleep, for that matter)- unlike my buddy who ALWAYS picks those two spells. At low levels, I find spells like the Orb spells, Burning Hands, Spider Climb, Shocking Grasp, Color Spray, Chill Touch, Grease, and True Strike to be more interesting.

In fact, the last campaign in which we were both running PCs, his mage had those 2 spells, as well as Acid Arrow, and my diviner did not. Now, my character concept was going in a particular direction, but saw the need for increased arcane firepower for the good of the party. Well, my bud's PC took the old saw about mages guarding their spellbooks jealously seriously and wouldn't share, so even when I WANTED to play those spells, I couldn't. Oh well!

 

[Nifft]

IMHO, Magic Missile is perfectly balanced up to 6th level. It's at 7th & 9th level that the trouble starts.

Up until 7th level, Magic Missile's slow damage advancement makes it less desirable than Shocking Grasp or even Burning Hands. This is perfect, for each spell has its niche.

At 9th level, though, it's hard to see any reason to take Shocking Grasp over Magic Missile. MM deals the same average damage, requires no close proximity, and hits incorporeal critters.

So, I cap MM at 3 missiles (i.e. at 5th level, rather than at 5 dice of damage).

One player whines, but the others understand.

-- N

 

[JoeBlank]

After gaming for over two decades, my solution to the "boring" magic missile is to just create a totally different sort of character. My latest campaign just started this week. They needed a mage, who would have likely had the generic magic missile. I made a psion. I focused on telepathy. And, just to make things really interesting, I'm limiting this character to ONLY telepathy powers. This is the true telepath. It makes things interesting and different.

I was thinking along similar lines, but without going psionic. My current sorcerer has some different spells for flavor, and because there were times I was not satisfied with the core spells available. But I think the next time I play a sorc I will try to go with NO core spells. It will take a forgiving DM, but I think between Eldritch Sorcery and the forthcoming Spell Compendium, plus a few original spells, I could come up with an interesting mix. Maybe play a stranger from a far away land, who uses spells no one has ever seen before.

And let me add my kudos to Pbartender's flavorful use of the MM spell. Slick.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah- the shaman's "dagger spells" were cool! Just goes to show you what a lack of information can do for you.

(Though, technically, Pbartender's NPC should have had that Spell Thematics Feat in order to defeat Spellcraft Checks...)

Note to self: explore possibilities and ramifications of making Spell Thematics, Energy Substitution, and other feats more common- possibly as class features!

 

[Harmon]

Last nights fight in Night Fang Spire with two Night Hags was interesting in that there were a lot of MM flying about. Broch of Shielding and Shield spells kept them from being effective- the Night Hags threw them at the fighter types (BoS) and the Sorc (before they realized she was a Sorc and had a Shield up).

The Girillions in the fight were for the most part only wittled on by the MM, it was the Lightning Bolt and the Wall of Ice that really did the damage. My wife was so tired, but she was aware of the fight enough to do some serious harm with those two spells.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Why should a 2nd level spell not be effective after 5th level.

I'm of mixed minds. At the one hand, you're right, that 2nd level spell slot should still have a use as you increase in level. On the other, the benefit that 2nd level spell slot gives you should diminish, and that 2nd level spell slot is replaced by higher level spells. In the realm of "making monsters loose turns in combat," Hold Person -> Hold Monster -> Hold Person, Mass -> Hold Monster, Mass. So Hold Person should stop being effective by about the time you get Hold Monster, since Hold Monster is the logical evolution of that category of spell.

IMHO, they shouldn't be seperate spells. "Hold" should just get more powerful as you spend higher level slots on it (not unlike Wheel of Time's system). As it works, they're just spells Sorcerers shuold steer away from.