Sickening Grasp reserve feat

[SnowHeart]

All, I am a little confused with respect to the Sickening Grasp reserve feat. Almost all Reserve feats say that you "can" or you "may" use it for such and such an effect. In contrast, Sickening Grasp says "Any living creature you hit with a melee touch attack becomes sickened..." I think it would be a reasonable reading to say that this applies automatically whenever you hit with a melee touch attack and it does not require the use of a standard action, thus it could be used in the same round you are casting a spell (and thus used simultaneously with a spell that requires a touch attack and/or with an attack of opportunity). This seems to make sense in the context of the less powerful nature of making a target sickened (as compared to, say, Fiery Burst) but...

What say you?

 

[Jack Simth]

Well now... that is interesting, isn't it? Huh. Hit someone with Harm, and have them make two saves...

 

[Vegepygmy]

I think it would be a reasonable reading to say that this applies automatically whenever you hit with a melee touch attack and it does not require the use of a standard action...

It might be, if not for this (Complete Mage, page 37):

Each reserve feat's primary benefit is a supernatural ability usable at will. Unless stated otherwise, it requires a standard action to activate and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.​

 

[concerro]

All, I am a little confused with respect to the Sickening Grasp reserve feat. Almost all Reserve feats say that you "can" or you "may" use it for such and such an effect. In contrast, Sickening Grasp says "Any living creature you hit with a melee touch attack becomes sickened..." I think it would be a reasonable reading to say that this applies automatically whenever you hit with a melee touch attack and it does not require the use of a standard action, thus it could be used in the same round you are casting a spell (and thus used simultaneously with a spell that requires a touch attack and/or with an attack of opportunity). This seems to make sense in the context of the less powerful nature of making a target sickened (as compared to, say, Fiery Burst) but...

What say you?

All reserve feats are SU, and all SU require a standard action to use unless stated otherwise. That is stated in the general section for the reserve feats. Since the spell is a standard action, and sickening grasp is a standard action you can't do both. The non-double standard action is what stops the Order of the Bow Initiate's primary ability from working with Manyshot or Improved Manyshot.

 

[SnowHeart]

Right, and that's how I've been reading it and having it played in our group but when I compare Sickening Grasp to other reserve feats, it seems rather weak. As compared to, say, 3d6 of fire damage every round (or 8d6, or whatever the highest level fire spell you have memorized) with fiery burst, you just impose -2 penalties for one round? Not even nauseated? It seems rather weak to me. And then reading through the feat itself, I think you could say it does say otherwise: "ANY creature hit with a melee touch attack..." could imply the effect is always active.

I'm honestly inclined to agree with the more limited, standard action required approach, but every time I come back to the feat and read it with that intepretation, it seems very weak to me and the only way it seems of equal value to other reserve feats is if you take the sort of "always active" approach (maybe the argument is that a +1 DC to Necromancy spells, including most death spells, is fearsome enough?), but it requires an inference that the feat wasn't written well enough to clearly state such is the case.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You could just make it last 1 round / spell level, so higher level spells actually are useful to keep in reserve? Is that exactly what it does? Almost all reserve feats give stronger effects when using higher level spells.

 

[SnowHeart]

You could just make it last 1 round / spell level, so higher level spells actually are useful to keep in reserve? Is that exactly what it does?

It does. Thank you for reminding me of that. Okay, perhaps not quite so useless. We have a mage in the party (actually an NPC that is currently being run by a player) and this feat just hasn't been used at all, so I guess I just defaulted back to my original thought that it was not proportionate to the other reserve feats..

 

[Jack Simth]

It does. Thank you for reminding me of that. Okay, perhaps not quite so useless. We have a mage in the party (actually an NPC that is currently being run by a player) and this feat just hasn't been used at all, so I guess I just defaulted back to my original thought that it was not proportionate to the other reserve feats..

Oh, that.

For the most part, Reserve feats aren't really worth the action in combat, unless you're on a very long grind (although there are exceptions; most notably Minor Shapeshift, Summon Elemental, and Dimension Step - the first for the temp HP renewable every round as a Swift action; the second for instant-flanking and a temporary hallway blockage; the third as a get-out-of-grapple-cheap card).

For specific builds, some of the reserve feats are handy in battle - Blade of Force is handy (extra damage) for gishes; the touch-attack direct-damage reserve feats are handy for Unseen Seers, Arcane Tricksters, and similar (as a vehicle for sneak attack or equivalent).

For the most part, where Reserve feats shine is out of combat, although quite a few aren't useful there, either. The direct-damage reserve feats are handy for de-trapping; especially Acidic Splatter and Fiery Burst (the first for doing full damage to objects, the second for the 30-foot range at 3rd level). Touch of Healing and Mitigate Suffering stretch your healing resources considerably. Magic Sensitive is useful for those who want to find magical stuff and are lacking Permanency. Summon Elemental makes for disposable minions to throw at traps, and for handling things best left untouched. Born Aloft gets you across a lot of chasms. Face-Changer replaces a Hat of Disguise (and has some added benefits, but some added drawbacks as well). Sunlight Eyes lets you see in any condistions - including magical darkness - which is relatively rare.

Generally speaking, though, when I'm playing a caster and they're permitted, I'll generally go for Summon Elemental, and a Direct-Damage reserve feat (Fiery Burst if I'm playing below 11th or my caster has difficulties getting Acid spells; Acidic Splatter otherwise), and find some way to swing a constant Detect Magic effect (whether that's with Permanency, Divine Metamagic, or Magic Sensitive, in a pinch) so I can play something of the skillmonkey's roll if there's no skillmonkey. If my caster can easily qualify, I'll also often pick up Minor Shapeshift and/or Touch of Healing.

 

[concerro]

Right, and that's how I've been reading it and having it played in our group but when I compare Sickening Grasp to other reserve feats, it seems rather weak. As compared to, say, 3d6 of fire damage every round (or 8d6, or whatever the highest level fire spell you have memorized) with fiery burst, you just impose -2 penalties for one round? Not even nauseated? It seems rather weak to me. And then reading through the feat itself, I think you could say it does say otherwise: "ANY creature hit with a melee touch attack..." could imply the effect is always active.

I'm honestly inclined to agree with the more limited, standard action required approach, but every time I come back to the feat and read it with that intepretation, it seems very weak to me and the only way it seems of equal value to other reserve feats is if you take the sort of "always active" approach (maybe the argument is that a +1 DC to Necromancy spells, including most death spells, is fearsome enough?), but it requires an inference that the feat wasn't written well enough to clearly state such is the case.

I don't know how nice you are as a DM, but if my players get close enough to make a touch attack with a d4 HD caster they might get a new character sheet shortly. That may be why your player does not use the feat.

PS: I think I replied to the wrong post. I was trying to reply to the one that was commenting on the fact that the feat does not get used, but I am to lazy to look for it.

 

[SnowHeart]

I don't know how nice you are as a DM, but if my players get close enough to make a touch attack with a d4 HD caster they might get a new character sheet shortly. That may be why your player does not use the feat.

Heh. Yes, that would be a bad situation and I'm not that nice, but I would allow (and have told the player) the Sickening Grasp to be applied through Spectral Hand.