Silence Spell Saving Throw

[Thanee]

Any action in which you do not move means your movement is restricted? Woo! now I can 'partial charge' anytime I use my move action for something other than moving

Also, the spell protects vs sonic based attacks, protection tends to be abjuration.

Yeah, but as I said, this is more of a result of the spell's effect, than the spell's effect itself.

About the illusion... it's a Glamer, like Invisibility, so not subject to disbelieve or anything.

A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

So it's certainly ok that way (the subject being the area of effect, I suppose).

Bye
Thanee

 

[MerakSpielman]

I like to use odd combos to make weak monsters more of a challange. Ten orcs don't seem like much of a threat to a 10th level party, but give them one caster with a wand of Silence and lots of tanglefoot bags and missile weapons.... suddenly it's much harder. Likewise the trolls with Protection from Fire and Protection from Acid spells on them as a challange for higher-level parties.

 

[Scion]

Illusions tend not to effect real changes, especially glamors. The problem is that the spell actually does something real, while the definition of glamor is 'seems' to do something real.

Actual change vs subjective change. Not much of an illusion at that point.

 

[Thanee]

Erm...

A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else ...

No "seems" there...

Illusions can have real effects... Shadow Illusions for example are quite real.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Just because someone makes you go deaf (or seems to make you go deaf) does not mean that it stops sound.

Silence stops sound. Illusions do not effect real change in most cases (shadow stuff is the exception, which is why I said 'tend' above).

The glamor can make you think you hear nothing, make you think you taste something, and do a number of other things, but that does not mean that the actual reality has been changed, merely the subjects perception of it.

Silence actually changes something.

There is a 'huge' difference there.

That is why I always suggest to make the spell stop spellcasting 20% of the time (just like being deaf stops vocal components 20% of the time).

Still, neither here nor there, the text you have quoted supports my position.

 

[Scion]

Just to, hopefully, finish off that side track:

SRD:
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Although I don't think it's a particularly significant change, I do agree that Silence would work better as a Transmutation or Abjuration. I tend to favor a Transmutation, since I've seen the spell more often used as an offense, rather than a defense, and it is does produce a change, rather than blow something up or bring something into existance. Doesn't really make a big difference in my games either way, though.

On the spell itself, it's strong, but not extremely so. At least, not as I've always interpreted it, which may be a House Rule. I've always treated attended objects as part of the attendee, so casting it on a mage's clothes or his wand allow the mage the same saving throw he'd have gotten had you cast it directly on him. Even the goo from a tanglefoot bag, if thrown prior to casting the spell, would count as attended IMC.

So it's a nice effect, but it allows a saving throw. Once you get to mid- and high-levels, you aren't really going to have a good chance of affecting a spellcaster unless you heighten it.

 

[Scion]

Do you mean the old, 'everything in the area gets a save' or something else?

If it is everything gets a save then the spell will pretty much never work, if it is some special case how does it work for you?

Any save negates the spell, so if you allow multiple saves then it is that much more likely to be killed.

It is already the case that if you cast it on something that a person is carrying then a save is granted to negate the spell, so that is a nonissue. However, casting it on some other object and then another save being granted when that object touches a creature.. that could get sticky in other parts of the ruleset I would think.

 

[Thanee]

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.

Well, I suppose they do not consider sound to be real in that sense then.

I guess they mean that like physical or something.

Invisibility also has a real effect in the way you think about it, it changes the way light waves are reflected, so it cannot be an illusion (glamer) spell either then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Do you mean the old, 'everything in the area gets a save' or something else?

Something else.

It is already the case that if you cast it on something that a person is carrying then a save is granted to negate the spell, so that is a nonissue. However, casting it on some other object and then another save being granted when that object touches a creature.. that could get sticky in other parts of the ruleset I would think.

Hrmm. I had originally meant to address throwing a tanglefoot bag at a wizard, then casting Silence on the bag. In such a situation, I would consider the goo from the tanglefoot bag "attended" and thus allow the wizard a saving throw.

I hadn't realized that this maneuver is actually the reverse. Cast the spell on the bag, then throw it at the wizard...

Still, the tanglefoot bag itself requires a touch attack and allows a Reflex save to avoid being stuck to the floor (and thus stuck in the area of the Silence), so I'm not sure the tactic is powerful enough to demand intervention.

In fact, thinking about it more, I kind of like it. A party could decide to deal with this any number of ways. From the nearby cleric coming over to help scrape off the goo, to the sorcerer casting a Silent Chill Touch, to another party member trying to get rid of the Silence with a Dispel Magic.