Silence Spell Saving Throw

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm not sure why this argument is happening at all. It's very clear that illusion spells have the capacity to change the sensory qualities of a creature or area. Which means that an illusion can give off light or prevent its transfer, it can create or negate sound, and it can provide resistance to simulate the tactile feel of a solid object although it can't provide enough resistance to support weight. If major image can create sound, silence can dampen it.

 

[Vrecknidj]

All this talk has got me to re-thinking an old strategy some underground denizens used in a campaign once. Someone please correct any mistakes in this.

According to my reading of the SRD, it should be possible to cast both darkness and silence on a crossbow bolt. If some user of the crossbow can still see (say, he has darkvision, and/or the target is within the radius of enough light), he should be able to fire the crossbow bolt at a target, delivering both a silenced and darkened effect to the place where the bolt ends. So, the person with the crossbow, to guarantee getting things right, could target the floor over by some enemy if that enemy is hard to hit, and still devlier the effects to the proper place.

Correct or no?

Dave

 

[Thanee]

Well, Darkness would make it pretty hard to see even with Darkvision, but otherwise, yeah.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

I'm not sure why this argument is happening at all. It's very clear that illusion spells have the capacity to change the sensory qualities of a creature or area. Which means that an illusion can give off light or prevent its transfer, it can create or negate sound, and it can provide resistance to simulate the tactile feel of a solid object although it can't provide enough resistance to support weight. If major image can create sound, silence can dampen it.

A glamor/figment can make sound 'seem' to disapear, but this would give no protection vs sonic attacks. Silence provides protection.

SRD:
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements


Just because you dont know something is there does not mean it cannot hurt you.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, Darkness would make it pretty hard to see even with Darkvision...

Why? It 'radiates shadowy illumination', right?

(Sure, the Darkvision makes no difference, but you can still see just fine, albeit dimly...)

-Hyp.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

A glamor/figment can make sound 'seem' to disapear, but this would give no protection vs sonic attacks. Silence provides protection.

SRD:
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements


Just because you dont know something is there does not mean it cannot hurt you.

That would be true, if what a glamer/figment did was make you think you heard or did not hear something. Since they are not mind-affecting, they do not do this. Illusions of this type arrange it so there actually is or is not a sound to be heard. It, unlike a phantasm, changes the objective state of the area, the changes being limited to changes of sound and appearance. What the illusion must do, then, is to actually change the volume level of sound in the area, either creating volume and pitch or dampening it.

As a sonic attack is supposedly a very loud and focused sound, it is affected by the glamer in exactly the same way as a more quiet sound is. The sound is suppressed inside the effect. No sound means no wave of force, because the wave of force is composed of sound. An illusion cannot create a sound loud enough or at a pitch at which it can do damage, because that is expressly forbidden. But preventing such damage by eliminating the sound that causes it is not forbidden, and this is exactly what Silence does. There are no other illusions, to my knowledge, that can eliminate a sound completely. Silence fills this role, and that's why it's the one that can provide protection. Any other illusions that completely dampen sound should also provide protection.

You'll notice that the "* Image" series of spells only create sensations. They do not remove them. You can use them to disguise, but not eliminate the prevailing sensory conditions. If you put an illusionary wall in front of something, you can't see through it, but likewise, if you sound an illusionary trumpet it might make it hard to hear footsteps approaching. In either case, figments can be disbelieved if interacted with, which negates their disguising effects.

Nothing real is created by the silence field. It is simply an area in which sound cannot happen. If an attack is composed of sound, it cannot happen in that area.

 

[Scion]

So, you are saying that even though it literally says that it cannot do what you have just said it can do, that it is ok?

Very odd.

If you put up an illusory wall it does not stop a fireball, no matter how solid it may look.

Likewise, an area of illusory silence will not stop a silenced based attack, no matter how quiet it sounds.

Figments and glamors cannot protect, they are unreal, they cannot do what they are supposed to for this spell.

Hence, its descriptor is incorrect, there is nothing remotely illusory about this spell.

Changing the area to be doing something like negating sound completely is in the realm of transmutation or abjuration, or possibly shadow magic, but the last would likely only negate part of the sound or have a percent chance of negating the sound.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

So, you are saying that even though it literally says that it cannot do what you have just said it can do, that it is ok?

Very odd.

It says nothing of the sort. It says that it cannot produce real effects, only changes in the visual and auditory (perhaps tactile and smell) qualities of the area of effect. Volume is an auditory quality. Just as Invisibility can completely eliminate visual effects, Silence can completely eliminate auditory effects.

Look, let's be clear here. When I make an illusory wall, I can really see the wall. My seeing the wall is a real effect. If I took a picture of the wall, I would have a real picture of a wall. It's not just "in my head." The way that things look has actually, really changed. What they mean by a "real" effect is one that changes the number or condition of objects in the environment. It just so happens that sonic effects use sound, which is something that illusion spells can play with. Which makes them a special case, as is noted in the appropriate spell descriptions.

If you put up an illusory wall it does not stop a fireball, no matter how solid it may look.

Of course it doesn't. It's not a real barrier, and the fire is certainly capable of penetrating it. But it might protect against a gaze attack, a Hypnotic Pattern, or any other effect that relies on unobstructed line of sight between an effect and its target, so long as it provides concealment. Protecting you against a fireball would constitute cover. It doesn't provide cover, because cover requires a real barrier. Concealment only requires some impediment to vision.

Likewise, an area of illusory silence will not stop a silenced based attack, no matter how quiet it sounds.

Figments and glamors cannot protect, they are unreal, they cannot do what they are supposed to for this spell.

Apparently they can, so long as what they do is change the volume of a sonic effect to nil. Since "volume control" is well within the purview of illusion magic, and sonic effects rely on volume control. It protects you from sonic effects in much the same way as teleporting to Fiji protects you from the effects of cold weather. But we're not going to redefine Teleport as an Abjuration, are we?

 

[Scion]

SRD:
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

You said that already. What this line means is that the modification of visual and auditory effects does not constitute a "real effect" in game terms, not that illusions are unable to achieve such modifications.

Otherwise all illusions are transmutations.

(edit)

Also note that Sonic is not an element.

Quoting myself:

Look, let's be clear here. When I make an illusory wall, I can really see the wall. My seeing the wall is a real effect. If I took a picture of the wall, I would have a real picture of a wall. It's not just "in my head." The way that things look has actually, really changed. What they mean by a "real" effect is one that changes the number or condition of objects in the environment.

What I'm trying to get at here is that what they mean by "real effect" and what common sense dictates is a "real effect" are two different things. The illusion is a real effect, otherwise there would be no point in casting illusions. I think that what they mean by "real" is what you would mean by "the opposite of fake". Illusions aren't real. They're fake. Doesn't mean they're not "real", as in "they have effects that change the situation."

For lack of a better definition of "real effect", we can use the list provided in the SRD quote above. Note that "protection against sonic effects" or "protection against anything besides the elements" is not included in that list. They mean that an illusory fire won't keep you from freezing to death (or hallucinatory Fiji terrain, for that matter). But the illusory fire might protect you from wild animals. Nothing rules that out, and that is a real effect.