Silence Spell Saving Throw

[Scion]

I've said it several times, and I keep on putting it up because it says what you are saying is wrong.

It cannot produce real effects, it cannot protect.

Just like the wall cannot stop line of effect (although it can stop line of sight, which is not a direct effect, which is more what is meant by 'real' effects) a silence illusion cannot stop sound for real. It can fool someone into thinking there is no sound, but it cannot offer protection.

All of your, 'but it can make real sound so it must be able to negate real sound' just doesnt work. Illusions can make illusory sound, they can make sound seem to disapear, but they cannot exact real change (at least not illusions of this type).

Nothing you have said negates what the text actually states. You can play around with it and just assume that it is correct, but the text I have put up specifically denies it.

So, once again

SRD:
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements


This spell does not do things along the lines of the raw, therefore it is labeled as the wrong school.

We are not talking mind effecting here for the guy who said that, we are not talking about making all illusions into transmutations, they are a special case which can intrude slighlty into many different schools, but the specific case of this one is that it cannot protect. Just like the illusory wall will not stop a fireball this spell cannot stop the damage from sonic based attacks and still be an illusion. Not possible.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Sorry, I keep editing the last post. Gist: It says it can't protect against the elements, but nothing else.

All of your, 'but it can make real sound so it must be able to negate real sound' just doesnt work. Illusions can make illusory sound, they can make sound seem to disapear, but they cannot exact real change (at least not illusions of this type).

What exactly do you mean by "seem to disappear"? The sound is either there or it isn't. If it is, you either hear it or you don't. If you don't hear a sound that's there, that indicates that there's something altered about you, not the sound. If there's something altered about your perception, you must have suffered a mind-affecting effect. Have you suffered a mind-affecting effect? No.

Therefore: it made the sound disappear.

Nothing you have said negates what the text actually states.

That's right. That is because my interpretation is consistent with the text.

 

[Scion]

Seems to dissapear just like the wall seems to appear. No difference.

Just because you cannot see something does not mean it cannot hurt you.

Just becuase you cannot hear something does not mean it cannot hurt you.

Silence provides actual protection vs an energy type, this is beyond a figment/glamors power. It cannot effect real change.

It can effect change indirectly, which is what illusions are all about, but it cannot effect real change directly. Hence the 'real change'. You can fool someone into taking different actions, but if they took the actions anyway it will still do bad things to you.

Also, there are ways around them, such as being able to see through them or bypass it, silence does not have this quality.

It does not 'seem to change' anything, it actually enacts real change in the area. It offers protection, or changes the area if you prefer for transmutation, to be something different. It isnt like putting up an illusory wall, which seems to be there, it is like casting a wall of stone, which is actually there.

The area is inherantly different in a real sense, not in an illusory sense.

Completely different things. This spell does not act like an illusion of any sort.

 

[Scion]

That's right. That is because my interpretation is consistent with the text.

Not any text in the core, srd, or anywhere else I can find. Where is this text you are refering to?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ehh...

*throws up hands*

Let's let the peanut gallery decide.

 

[Thanee]

SRD:
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements

That really cannot be the kind of "real effect" you mean there... otherwise many of the glamer spells in the PHB would be wrong.

I think they just mean that they cannot change or create matter, physical substance. This would be consistent with Silence and Invisibility and other such spells.

It's not very consistent in a physics sense, but it's not really meant to be, I suppose.

Bye
Thanee

 

[taliesin15]

scion says:
a silence illusion cannot stop sound for real. It can fool someone into thinking there is no sound, but it cannot offer protection.
____________

if this is the case, then it seems to me that Silence cannot really stop spellcasters casting spells with auditory components--surely the spellcaster in question doesn't need to actually hear the auditory component as s/he is thinking it as s/he is speaking it--and, depending on what sort of milieu is being run, it doesn't matter if the surrounding people can hear the auditory component at all, at the most, as long as the Gods or Energies that provide the umph behind the Magic know that it is spoken (surely they aren't hindered by a Silence spell), then I frankly don't see why there would be any sort of problem

that being the case, Silence is not as powerful a spell as people suggested early on

 

[KarinsDad]

SRD:
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can.

Silence stops the sound. Period. Why? Because the spell says so.

Glamers also have the power to do this.

"A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear"

The sound "sounds like something else": it sounds like "no sound".

The sound coming out of that area (and within that area) does not exist, just like visible light reflecting off an invisible character does not exist.

Period.

This is easy to comprehend if Scion would just get off of the "they cannot produce real effects" sentence in the book. That quote limits other physical aspects of glamers, but does not limit their ability to change any form of force or radiation which affects senses (i.e. light, sound, smell, etc.).

Glamers DO have real effects, they are just limited as to which real effects they can have (as per the invisible hand over the hole in the ceiling allowing light in whereas the visible hand does not).

To create a sound, you ARE creating a real effect. Hence, that sentence is moot to the discussion. It is not talking about those areas that Glamers have dominion over, it is talking about those areas that Glamers do not have dominion over.

Interpreting this sentence to mean that Silence cannot be a Glamer is just plain invalid.

 

[Scion]

"A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear"

From your very quote it makes silence unable to do this.

The subjects sensory qualities are changed and it 'seems' to dissapear.

Just because you cannot hear something does not mean that it cannot hurt you.

Just like if you cannot see it does not mean it cannot hurt you.

It says it right there in black and white, you even posted it yourself.

It doesnt 'actually' change it, it just makes it seem to be changed.

 

[Thanee]

It doesnt 'actually' change it, it just makes it seem to be changed.

It does 'actually' change it... it makes it invisible... and so it seems to have disappeared, altho it is still around but you just cannot 'actually' see it...

Bye
Thanee