Silly economics of DnD

[mroberon1972]

More of the same...

Actually, Herald, I think we do understand that. The problem is, only your first reason (we want it that way) makes any differance. As I said, The money/people model you are speaking of cannot survive in a world of high magic where someone, somewhere can cast 9th level spells.

Let me give an example. A 5th level wizard spell, Wall of Iron, costs 50 GP to make a wall that is a huge number of tons of pig iron (I say this since it seems fairly easy to break through 3 inches of it.) Once smelted down into steel, this is worth much more than the original 50 GP! This is not an error, but a statement of economy. Who would not purchase wizard iron at a cost the fraction of what it would cost to mine, move, and smelt it? Saying a wizard would not use it that way is not silly, It's STUPID! Of course he will do this! Spell research cost money, Ink costs money, food costs money!!! Can you actually picture a poor, destitute mage of high level? Uh huh...

But what about mass production? Well, you can't mass produce magic items, but you can make a magic item that mass produces a normal item!

A wizard of means (he's rich guys...) has a brother in the city who is an armorer. He asks, if you can make a Wall of Iron, then why can't you make a Breastplate with a spell. Huh... Well, after about 3 moths of research, he makes a new magic item. 5 times per day, over a period of about an hour, it makes a basic breastplate out of steel and spits it out a slot. It needs some coal to keep the fires hot (elemental fire it too dangerous), and some ore loaded in the top (wall of iron built in costs too much). It does not use charges, and cannot be moved very easy (several tons weight). Bound to it is a happy little Azer (sp?) that hammers out the breastplate to the right shape for the new owner. The Azer has been well paid, and only appears to hammer the breastplate to the needed size, so is free do what it wants the rest of the time...

Over time, it makes back the mony spent to make it in the first place, just by freeing the smiths hands...

OMG!!! Mass production. What can stop it!

Lots of angry armor smiths coming for blood...

You see, if a improvment is good for everybody (improved agriculture) then no one complains. But if it is only good for some and bad for others, the others pick up thier hammers and break the improvment, along with the some...

It's in american history guys... As well as the rest of the world.

The problem is, you can never put the Azer back in the bottle...

Class dismissed!

PS: The first one of you who says a wizard would not do this gets smacked with a fish! It only takes one! And there is always a Tesla waiting for his chance at history...

 

[herald]

Except on problem teach.

I'm the armorer on the other side of town and I look into see just how you do such a thing, then I take that information to another spell caster and he says, "Wow, thats a dumb idea, with dispel magic, I can make that guys armor disappear.

Well the armorer feels that hes going to fall behind meny wise and he then turns around and sells that information to the rogues guild. Soon rogues are following customers around till they can get they into a comprimising position and zap them with a wand of dispel magic. Now you have a very angry customer and merchant with a bad reputation. Heavans forbid that this happens to a noble, you can be sure no matter how powerful you are, your going to have alot of explaining to do.

So back to the drawing board teach, you haven't got a form of mass production that will work.

 

[mroberon1972]

Herald, I understand your idea. Used it myself in 2nd edition.

You are wrong.

First, even if it was made from a Wall of Iron spell, IT CANNOT BE DISPELLED. It's and instant spell, like healing, and has zero residual magic to dispel.

Second, even if you play it that it can be, please read the item description. It says it takes base materials and makes it into an item. Think "mend"... There is nothing to dispel here either.

Course you could dispel the machine, But it's hard, and if the local guard caught you at it, you might be looking at foure stone walls and bars... (think theft of time... etc...)

Try again Herald, I WANT an argument to stop this. Because I like a non-industrial base too.

PS. Like I said, this would have worked in 2nd and 1st edition, and god did I use it as a player! HOYA!

 

[jasper]

Shark -theatre was around since Greeks and geeks. Good Ideas I will try to run with it.

M1972- links were generally riveted not welded but good spell. Keep 1 st level, duration of 10 minutes and up to 1 Pd of object. Not using D&D figurers but a shirt weight in between 18 to 22 PDS. So the spell would take 20 castings or 20 days for the 1-st level adept. Humm. Maybe have Make Link 2 – x each a higher-level spell for more material.
Or to go with the touch equals link 1-hour duration. Figure 2 seconds to grab the wire, start in the weave and hit with magic (60 seconds / 2) * 60 minutes equals 1,800 links. I will be nice and say a shirt is 18,000 links so that is 10 spells and 10 days for our magic fingered mailer. Still need a Make Link 2 with a two-hour or greater duration. At sixteenth (16) level the smith can get fabricate and make a shirt a day. Does not look too good for lusty young smith.

I use the breakdown in DMG for cities. Year 1 is where the city obtains the distribution.
Hartsford base 5000 adults
1st level
Commers 4098
Warriors 225
Experts 125
Aristocrats 25
Adepts 32 16 2(nd) 8 (4th) 4 (8th) 2(16th)
Let use the adepts as base for clerics, druids, wizards and sorcerers. Assume half go up 1 level per year with no causalities.
The hills near by have good precious metal and precious stones mines.
The gods are among us and are happy. All the divine casters must cast some spells to promote the welfare of city and the god. It a one god town to ignore those minor alignment and crusades. Use the cleric spell chart as a base
Arcana casters must cast 1 spell per day for the public good except for those who drain xp. For every 500 xp cost caster is immune from public service for a week.
All material cost paid by city.
Year 1
800 levels able to cast zero level spells
186 people are able to cast at least one first level divine spells per day.
90 people are able to cast more one first level divine spells per day. 276 spells available today
42 people are able to cast at least one second level divine spells per day. 42 second level spells available today.
18 people are able to cast at least one third and one fourth level spell per day. 18 3 rd and 18 4 th spells are able today.
6 people are able to cast one spell each 5 to 8 th level.
0 ninth levels available.

400 gallons of water and 400 pds of food can be purified. So call it 400 able to eat and drink clean food.
Or the 4 arcana casters can spend 500 xp each and 4 wells can be Permanency with Purify Food and Drink
Remove disease is third level so at least 18 people are safe from the black plague. Create food and water is third level so 18*3 = 54 people get Mres per day.

So Shark and M1972 are going on the correct path. You may end up with a lot multiclass npcs. Some due to various experiences and others would cross train if they could not get higher level spells. But think how easily it is mess up public works with permanency on them. Joe Blow adventure taking his +1 hammer to the well oops.

So the modern type civilization is possible with some forethought, strong rulers, and willing subjects. But release a pack of middle level adventurers into the town and the damage would be high

 

[herald]

I haven't found anything in the spell desription to back up what your saying, nor have found anything in the current faq about that.

Mend and heal are different because thier actions not objects.

Not to mention that your concept still falls flat because while you might be able to mass produce, you more than likely don't have a demand. At least a demand that would be able to meet the cost of what your doing.

Where your spell falls down is simple. Your making a refined object out of nothing. There are no spells that really do that. even still, lets move on with that idea. first, its going to be a higher spell 5th level. Were talking about 7th or 8th. And your component cost is going to he higher.

Now let's look into some other real world problems.

Lets suppose you start cranking out breastplates just as quick as they put out rapiers in the reniassance. Pretty soon people start using this false bravado and to cause trouble, and before you know it, you could find the your product outlawed.

Not to mention that the miners guild and armorer guild are going to have a real problem. Before long, they do anything to destroy your reputation, and petition to have you device destroyed or taken away. Perhaps they will even get chuches involved in going after you. Or maybe something worse will happen, the device will be stolen or confiscated by a individual who has other uses for it. (queue evil music here)

Here is the thing that you have to remember. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. It's true in laws of science as well as human nature. Not everytime someone tries to implement a revolutionary idea has it work. There have to be many other factors that allow it to exploit its full potential.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hey there Gary! I'm glad you like my ideas! I think that trying to "force" the 12th-Century European model, no matter how cherished, seems contrived after a short period of time, and flies in the face of the diverse powers of magic, and of human--and non-human!--desire for progress and change. All such creatures and races that have access to arcane and divine magic cannot really be seen as "static".

For example, we all know how prolific and powerful the various spell-lists are, and how useful they are to adventurers and in all forms of combat--I simply reject the streroetype that Wizards are all isolated, selfish, bitter hermits, and that the various clerics and druids throughout the area have no problem in using their magic to help the all-important adventerers, but somehow, using magic to make lasting, dramatic changes to society on a broad scale is simply beyond them, you know?

Indeed, making magic items, technology, and deploying such magical power to effect the changes I listed may not be as flashy as defeating a dragon, or hordes of demons, but in the long-term, are such achievements any less glorious?

King: "Well, wizard, what have you done lately to earn my financial and political support for all of these years?"

Wizard: "Well, sire, I have not defeated any dragons, or hordes of demons, but I have initiated a comprehensive program that in twenty years time will have every city and town in your kingdom lit 24 hours a day, have running water, efficient sewage removal, and countless other improvements that will enhance everyone's lives--whether they be humble farmer, merchant, or wealthy noble. In cooperation with several larger churches, the majority of the population will be wealthier, have more discretionary time and income, be happier, more productive, and live longer, healthier, happier lives. These changes will gradually combine to make you and your descendents fabulously wealthy, and the whole kingdom will be greatly advanced. Your reign will go down in history as the greatest rule to bring such glorious and beautiful changes to the whole society, that you will forever be remembered with love, admiration, and respect. In addition, for the kingdoms and peoples that live in ignorance and darkness, your kingdom will be the envy of all of your neighbors. As the knowledge and skills spread, our neighbors will become advanced and more successful, and be better able to participate even more fully with our own great magics, scholarship, and advanced economy. The more our neighbors adopt our ways, the more productive they will become, and the more wealthy and productive we will become as well.

These are the things that I have done in service to you sire, and the righteous kingdom that is your domain!"

It makes me think of how shallow and petty the streotypical wizard or cleric is often portrayed. These powerful people are all focused on fireballs and Greater Disjunctions, by do they nor have families? Do they not have children and grandchildren? Do they not have desires to change the grinding poverty, disease, and struggles of everyday people, that are all--to one degree or another, important to them?

A corrollary is, if magic can make fireballs and wishes, but it can't make running water, increased lifespans, make work easier, and increase the joy of life in so many smaller, simple ways, what good is it?

It seems incongrious to me that magic would be used always for adventurers, and all kinds of esoteric "research" for bigger and flashier spells, but somehow, many mundane improvements that would make huge differences in millions of peoples' lives is somehow so easily overlooked, ignored, and discounted, by people who have very real abilities to make such huge differences.

Even if you say this wizard is a hermit, and that one, and this cleric doesn't care, fine. But all of them? That doesn't strike me as very realistic, in considering human nature, and progress. Magic would be used for a thousand different purposes, not merely for combat artillery, or for the priviledged use of adventurers. Indeed, the application of magic on a broad scale throughout society can be seen to be in the long run, far more important and profitable than any particular adventuering group. The needs of an entire society calls out for the use of magic in so many ways that are far more interesting than what adventurers would seek to use it for. It is this incongrious notion that doesn't really take into consideration the enormous scope for change and improvement that magic being applied throughout society can really effect.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[mroberon1972]

Herald, you are not even trying...

Herald, you are not even trying...

Please READ the posts and then argue. As of this moment, you seem to be trolling for a fight. Please give more useful arguments.

To prevent confusion, here are the complete listings of the spells involved. Please note the bolded portions.

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Wall of Iron

Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Iron wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level (see text)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

The character causes a flat, vertical iron wall to spring into being. This wall can be used to seal off a passage or close a breach, for the wall inserts itself into any surrounding nonliving material if its area is sufficient to do so. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object. It must always be a flat plane, though the character can shape its edges to fit the available space.

The wall of iron is 1 inch thick per four caster levels. The character can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. Each 5-foot square of the wall has 30 hit points per inch of thickness. Creatures can hit the wall automatically, but it is so hard that the first 10 points of damage from each blow are ignored. (For example, a blow of 17 points of damage deals only 7 to the wall.) A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 25 + 2 per inch of thickness.

If the character desires, the wall can be created vertically resting on a flat surface but not attached to the surface so that it can be tipped over to fall on and crush creatures beneath it. The wall is 50% likely to tip in either direction if left unpushed. Creatures can push the wall in one direction rather than letting it fall randomly. A creature must succeed at a Strength check (DC 40) to push the wall over. Creatures with room to flee the falling wall may do so by making successful Reflex saves. Large and smaller creatures who fail take 10d6 points of damage. The wall cannot crush Huge and larger creatures.

Like any iron wall, this wall is subject to rust, perforation, and other natural phenomena.

Fabricate

Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level (see text)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The character converts material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If the character works with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

The character must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship (jewelry, swords, glass, crystal, etc.).

Casting requires 1 full round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.



Dispel Magic

Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 30-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The character can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) the ongoing effects of supernatural abilities as well as spells. Dispel magic affects spell-like effects just as it affects spells.

Note: The effects of spells with instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magic effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

The character choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the spell. The character makes a dispel check against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. A dispel check is 1d20 +1 per caster level (maximum +10) against a DC of 11 + the spell’s caster level.

If the spellcaster targets an object or creature who is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), she makes a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that the character targets is a magic item, the character makes a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If the character succeeds, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. Remember that a magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and creatures of demigod or higher status are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

The character automatically succeeds at the dispel check against any spell that the character cast.

Area Dispel: The spell affects everything within a 30-foot radius.

For each creature who is the target of one or more spells, the character makes a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that fails, the character makes dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until the character dispels one spell (which discharges the dispel so far as that target is concerned) or fail all the character's checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object that is the target of one or more spells, the character makes dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by area dispels.

For each ongoing area or effect spell centered within the dispel magic’s area, the character makes a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel, the character makes a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the area of the dispel magic.

If an object or creature who is the effect of an ongoing spell, such as a monster summoned by monster summoning, is in the area, the character makes a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

The character may choose to automatically succeed at dispel checks against any spell that the character cast.

Counterspell: The spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work. The character must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will not argue these facts any further. Herald, please research your information. In other words: RTFM.



Mr. Oberon

 

[Al]

So, you're right that there's a problem - the problem is in the abstracted "you get half your check result in gp" rule, and blindly applying it in all situations. It's OK as an abstraction for people actually working in the profession, but it shouldn't be used for unskilled checks.

Agreed, more or less; but I see the thread has moved on, so we'll leave it amicably here.

Now onto the other point, of magic changing society. I don't believe it would necessarily.

1. Overestimation of Casters

If you figure that 10% of the population can use magic of some kind (Wizards, Sorcerers, Priests, Psionics, and Adepts)

Well, this is a false starting point. Taking the DMG's advice that only one-tenth of the population lives in settlements larger than villages, we shall take the village. With a community modifier of -1, we can calculate the following: 3.5 clerics, 3.5 druids, 3.5 adepts, 1.75 sorcerers and 1.75 wizards; no paladins or rangers of spellcasting level. So, in a village of 650, only 14 people can cast spells; this is a fair compromise as the proportion will rise in larger settlements and fall in smaller settlements. This is a mere 2%.

Even if you figure that half of this total number is first level, then every half left over is one level higher (1000 x 1st, 500 x 2nd, 250 x 3rd, 125 x 4th, etc...),

Again, this does not correspond to the DMG standards, whereby a high level character generates twice as many of half his level, not his level-1.

Adepts 32 16 2(nd) 8 (4th) 4 (8th) 2(16th)

Wrong way round. You start at the top then halve; so the highest level adept is (average roll) level 6/7. Which means 2 level 3 adepts and the rest level 1. This is turn means that only one person can cast 2nd level spells in the adept community. Extend it to other spellcasters, and on average you get one caster of 4th level spells, 3 of 3rd level spells and a few more 2nd level spellcasters. Nowhere near your professed totals.

2. Lack of Organisation

The assumption made here are that the caster goes all-out 'for the good of society'. Whilst this may be true of good-aligned clerical orders, this is far from true of the general population of spellcasters. They are not going to train for years in order to set around all day acting as water purifiers; at least, not in the quantity and at the price that has been asserted here.

The notion cited that they would be coerced into doing so is even more ludicrous: if the local ruler tries to coerce them, he may at best face unrest and at worst face an outright spellcaster-led revolution. Not to mention the fact that the notions of a permanent standing army and of a powerful central government are alien to the feudal period (both evolved in c. 15th century).

3. Social Issues

A few months ago I posted a satirical thread which detailed how one could bring about an Industrial Revolution by having all the high-level spellcasters in the world manufacture Murlynd's Spoons. This would solve all food problems, release the general populace from agriculture, and cause an Industrial Revolution overnight. Whilst from a rational, 21st century economic standpoint this is not only sensible but lucrative (as the wizard could make a fortune charging a pittance for their Murlynd's Meals with little running costs) it is clearly incredible. No one here, I hope, would suggest that this is what high-level spellcasters would do.

That's part of the problem. Everyone here is assuming modern socioeconomic thinking. In order to have an Industrial Revolution, there must be certain factors which are not present in the feudal set-up.

• The concept of mass production
• An effective banking sector
• Some ideas of modern capitalist thinking
• The availability of technology at cheap prices, available to the masses

None of these are necessarily inherent to the 'magic revolution'. Even the last point on the list is precluded by the generally held conception that, even if the wizard were to 'market' his powers, it would probably be to the wealthy few, not the impoverished multitude.

All in all, magic cannot make an industrial revolution alone. It may aid in that end, but until the correct social circumstances are met, I see little chance of magic on its own bringing a world out of the medieval era.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Hi Shark!

Well, yes, there would certainly be some considerable advances in technology and lifestyle, standard of living because of magic.

I believe regular magic, limited as it it in its able practitioners, would be something that the upper class would mainly enjoy the benefits of. The rest would have only marginal gain--although as you point out running water and sanitation in communities of any size is not really marginal at all.

The clerical magical applications would be very broad and general, from top to bottom, with the upper tier getting the really large benefits, of course.

As I have stated several times, the ecclesiastical community would be as large as it was in the early middle ages, and those prieste, priestesses, friars, monks, and nuns would all be using varying drgrees of clerical magic power to assist the people. This would affect weather, crops, food production, health, and so forth.

With more agricultural wealth comes the capacity to exploit other natrual resounces, the need for trade, transportation, and foreign commerce. From that develop all sorts of associated industries as well as a growing market for imports, luxury goods too.

This line of thinking is set forth in the EVERYDAY LIFE book that I've just sent in to Troll Lord Games. Not wanting to rehash my work there, I'll let it go with that.

Cheerio,
Gary

 

[mroberon1972]

Hi Al!

Hi Al!

Actually, the number of magic using people does not have as much an impact on this as you would think. Also, keep in mind differing worlds have differing percentages of magic in thier world. I was only giving an example from my worlds. Please excuse the lack of information I gave.

Quote: "The assumption made here are that the caster goes all-out 'for the good of society'. "

No, It does not. It never had anything to do with the good of the people. It has to do with a wizard who wants to crank out 5 breastplates per day as a constant source of income. He gives it to someone (as powerful people tend to do... Elvis cars anyone?), and he begins to profit from it. Or the mage has someone manage it for a wage. You get the idea.

Quote: "The notion cited that they would be coerced into doing so is even more ludicrous."

Where did I quote this? Or is it someone else?

Quote:
-------------------------------------
The concept of mass production

An effective banking sector

Some ideas of modern capitalist thinking

The availability of technology at cheap prices, available to the masses
----------------------------------------


Your argument says we could have never developed one ourselves, since you seem to be saying that they cannot develop one? Also keep in mind another issue: Just because we developed our way (history) does not mean they have to follow the exact same model of development. We did not have living gods and humans weilding magic. Still, all humans tend toward progress as the norm.

Quote: All in all, magic cannot make an industrial revolution alone. It may aid in that end, but until the correct social circumstances are met, I see little chance of magic on its own bringing a world out of the medieval era.

I agree and more. Magic will NEVER bring advancement of technology. PEOPLE do this. Magic is just a set of natural laws of the world. Atomic energy is possible and good (please, no fights over this... It's off the topic.) but can only be made by very powerful groups with very special knowledge. They still happened, even with human nature.



Mr. Oberon,
"God, I love a good argument!"