Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-Stat) -- and Streamlining Hero

[mmadsen]

In addition to the three primary stats of the Tri-Stat system, characters have another three secondary, derived stats (Attack Combat Value, Defense Combat Value, and Health Points), Characteristic Attributes (not-quite-super-powers), Power Attributes (super-powers), Skills, and Defects.

The Attack Combat Value (ACV) and Defense Combat Value (DCV) are clear nods to Champions' Offensive Combat Value (OCV) and Defensive Combat Value (DCV). In Champions, OCV and DCV are both Dex/3. Naturally I'd expect SAS's ACV and DCV to be functions of Body -- but they're not, at least not purely. In a nod to Tri-Stat's Japanese anime roots, I assume, they're based on the unweighted average of all three Stats: Body, Mind, and Soul. (DCV is just OCV - 2.)

Thus, a big, dumb thug (Body 8, Mind 2, Soul 4) and a pencil-necked academic (Body 2, Mind 8, Soul 4) are equally likely to hit each other -- and they do the same damage with a punch! I can appreciate that wits and fighting spirit play a role, but that's ridiculous.

Characters get five Health Points (i.e. Hit Points) per Body and Soul. At least there our thug (60 HP) overshadows our academic (30 HP).

 

[mmadsen]

In one very important way, Tri-Stat combat resembles GURPS combat. The attacker makes an attack roll against a fixed difficulty to "hit", then the defender makes a defense roll against a fixed difficulty to dodge, parry, or block the attack.

While this is a quick and easy system -- you don't even have to add or subtract a single new value for a new and different target -- the fixed difficulties lead to scaling problems. Dodging is average difficulty, so anyone with a good DCV (and good defensive skills) might literally dodge 99% of all attacks that "hit". At just two points per level, Defensive Combat Mastery is too cheap to ignore.

There's a way around this problem though. Attackers can make Trick Shots, trading minus N to ACV for minus N to the defender's DCV. This works, but then mathematical players find themselves quickly calculating optimal Trick Shots for each new opponent. "Hmm...my ACV 18 vs. his DCV 17 -- I'll Trick Shot for minus 7."

 

[hong]

For those of us who have been using Tri Stat in other forms for some time, what does this offer over BESM? I mean, you can do some damn super-powered stuff with BESM...

I am particularly fascinated with the advantage "Owns a Big Robot".

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

mmadsen--

The lumping of strength, endurance, and agility into BODY, and the unweighted nature of ACV, are my two major complaints as well.

I picked up BESM2e quite a while ago, but I've never been able to really resolve the above to my satisfaction--though I'm sure there must be some way to use the rules to address them.

I really want to like this system though!

Many gamers whom I respect from these boards do seem to like it, and must have had similar issues--so I ask them, "How do you address these apparent shortcomings?".

 

[Psion]

Re: Tri-Stat

Body -- Str, Dex, and Con
Mind -- Int, aspects of Wis
Soul -- Wis, Cha

I don't mind (if you'll pardon the pun) Mind and Soul, and I don't mind grouping Str and Con -- honestly, how often is a character concept "big and fragile"? -- but grouping Str, Con, and Dex into one Body stat bothers me.

You know for the person who started this hype, you sure hit the nail on the head. This is precisely the reason that I will never take tri-stat seriously. I feel GURPS has entirely too few stats, but at least it can make a distinction between bruisers and agile characters. (Yes, I know you can lump on advantages, but I think the sorts of differences spelled out by the stats are too fundamental and trying to jimmy the results you want out of binary add-ons feel too artificial.)

 

[Psion]

The number of stats make the game?

No. But it can (and IMO does) break the game.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Tri-Stat

You know for the person who started this hype, you sure hit the nail on the head.

Mind you, mmadsen strikes me as someone who would never let actual gaming experience sully a beautiful theory.

This is precisely the reason that I will never take tri-stat seriously. I feel GURPS has entirely too few stats, but at least it can make a distinction between bruisers and agile characters. (Yes, I know you can lump on advantages, but I think the sorts of differences spelled out by the stats are too fundamental and trying to jimmy the results you want out of binary add-ons feel too artificial.)

What are the chances that the upcoming GURPS 4E will have six stats, adding Will and Charisma as independent from IQ? The former is already a published option in C1.


Hong "let us now talk about hit points..." Ooi

 

[JeffB]

PSION,

I am very curious why you so vehemently disllike SAS, regardless of whether it is the TRISTAT or D20 versions. Anytime someone even mentions it, you damn near seem to be offended...ESPECIALLY god forbid, when someone actually LIKES it.

It's obvious your loyalties are to D20 and when Supers are considered, HERO...but for petes sakes..neither system perfect either.

And why in god's name would anyone take any game seriously? That's why it's called a game.

 

[JoeGKushner]

One of my friends went out and bought the SAS. He wanted to do a Spycraft with Super Heroes thing. He couldn't do with with SAS but he loves SAS as its own game. Having seen that, I went out and bought the Tri-Stat system. Great game, easy to learn, easy to use.

Most importantly, and I want all you Hero Fans to listen up, it looks great.

Hero took ten years to make a book that looks very poor at best and crappy at worst. The rules are still very sound but I can tell you that a lot of people interested in the Super Hero genre, especially when they hear about Hero from people like me and see what it looks like, are going to pick it up, put it down and walk on over to SAS. As one shirt would say, "It's the layout stupid."

 

[Psion]

I am very curious why you so vehemently disllike SAS, regardless of whether it is the TRISTAT or D20 versions.

Why do you feel like attributing me with exagarrated emotions to me?

Anytime someone even mentions it, you damn near seem to be offended...ESPECIALLY god forbid, when someone actually LIKES it.

Offended? Show me any words that sound emotive enought to justify that label.

God forbid that I express my preferences in a game...

And why in god's name would anyone take any game seriously? That's why it's called a game.

Get a grip and stop mincing semantics. You should know what I mean. I would never seriously consider playing a tri-stat game.