Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-Stat) -- and Streamlining Hero

[Teflon Billy]

Think of it this way: You obviously liked Astro City a lot more than Busiek's marvel work. If Busiek wrote his other marvel work like he wrote Astro City, you'd probably like his marvel work better.

Busiek insisted on many occasions that he in fiact does "write his other work like he wrote Astro City". He also said the opposite.

I resent wasting my time trying to get information out of someone about how to support their title as they just make up whatever sounds best to them at any given moment.

And yet his marvel work--Night Thrasher excepted--has always sold better. So clearly he's writing to do different sensibilities, and you'd figure that that'd require two different thought processes.

I agree with you Drew. Kurt Busiek doesn't agree with you, however.

...If I get an injury that prevents me from sitting down, I'm going to take on as much standing up work as possible to cover my bills...

I hear you man. Read my previous posts to this topic.

On the mailing list, we suggested that this was the case: simply doing the easiest work possible because he was ill. Not a problem, fully understand.

Busiek himself corrected us on this saying that the delays in production were not illness related, and that the title was in no danger.

But he also said the opposite in other forums. It was just bull after bull...followed by more bull.

His stated reasons for why he was doing anything varied wildly depending on who he was addressing. Seriously, I've posted to this thread a lot fo stuff that will likely make my position clearer to you.

For the record, I thought his work on Iron Man was pretty good. Thunderbolts was crappy though.The Avengers was saved by the art of Perez.

 

[Teflon Billy]

...Does anyone have anything to say about Tri-Stat Silver Age Sentinels? Or my review of it? Rules that really "nail" the superhero genre?

I've said all I have to say on it. I thumbed through it and wasnt wild about what I saw. As for "Rules that Really 'Nail' the Superheo Genre", I say that's Champions, (From what I've seen) Mutants and Masterminds, and to a lesser degree Villains and Vigilantes (Great gameplay, not so great Character Generation).

As for the bitching, I think it was you who brought up Astro City, so if I'm discussing it, suck it up

Or would you prefer I just "bump" every so often?

 

[mmadsen]

I thumbed through it and wasnt wild about what I saw.

What did you see, and what about it didn't you like?

As for "Rules that Really 'Nail' the Superheo Genre", I say that's Champions, (From what I've seen) Mutants and Masterminds, and to a lesser degree Villains and Vigilantes (Great gameplay, not so great Character Generation).

What about those game systems though? As someone who's played a lot of Champions, I can say that the flexible powers -- with special effects separate from game mechanics and lots of advantages and disadvantages to customize the game mechanics -- are great, but the game does not play fast and loose. Even ignoring how complex and slow character generation is, combat is extremely slow, with lots of bookkeeping, no easy way to use old powers in clever new ways, weird combat results from "killing" attacks' "stun lotto", etc.

My hope was that Silver Age Sentinels would "nail" the genre, keeping the flexibility of Champions without the unnecessary complexity. I don't think it has. Certain elements though, I like. As I mentioned, the optional Second Wind rules fit the genre perfectly.

In fact, I think a mixture of Omega World's Hit Point Reserves and SAS's Second Wind rules could make some great d20 Superhero Hit Point rules. You get beat down, and you can heal up by resting, but you can also "heal" by collecting yourself for one last go, by seeing an innocent in danger and knowing you're the only one there to save her, etc.

 

[Teflon Billy]

What did you see, and what about it didn't you like?

Already posted the answer ealier in the thread

What about those game systems though? As someone who's played a lot of Champions, I can say that the flexible powers -- with special effects separate from game mechanics and lots of advantages and disadvantages to customize the game mechanics -- are great, but the game does not play fast and loose.

Couldn't agree with you more, on nearly every point there.

Even ignoring how complex and slow character generation is...

Slow character generation doesn't bug me. I tend to "fiddle around" with a new character for a bit anyways. We usually dedicate the first session of any new campaign solely to Character Generation. Plus I got a little piece of software called "Heromaker" with my 4th Edition Champions Blue Book which speeds things up heugely.

combat is extremely slow, with lots of bookkeeping, no easy way to use old powers in clever new ways, weird combat results from "killing" attacks' "stun lotto", etc.

Yup, this is what killed champions for me. I love the Character generation flexibility, but the gameplay is just too slow (though to be fair it does model superhero combat well mechanically)

What is a "Stun Lotto"?

My hope was that Silver Age Sentinels would "nail" the genre, keeping the flexibility of Champions without the unnecessary complexity. I don't think it has. Certain elements though, I like. As I mentioned, the optional Second Wind rules fit the genre perfectly.

I haven't looked at that particular power at all, butt from what you've said it is certainly "in Genre", yes.

In fact, I think a mixture of Omega World's Hit Point Reserves and SAS's Second Wind rules could make some great d20 Superhero Hit Point rules. You get beat down, and you can heal up by resting, but you can also "heal" by collecting yourself for one last go, by seeing an innocent in danger and knowing you're the only one there to save her, etc.

Well, Champions does have it's "pushing" rules to emulate that I think. I mean, I'm glad it's in there for Silver Age Sentinels (and Omega World; though I don't really know what that is), but it's not really groundbreaking stuff. Moe of an accepted Genre convention....I think V&V might have had something similar.

 

[mmadsen]

What is a "Stun Lotto"?

In Champions, a Killing Attack's damage is determined by two rolls, one for Body damage (e.g. 2d6 for an AK-47), and another for the Stun multiplier (1d6-1). A typical attack centers on about 7 points of Body damage, but that single Stun-multiplier die might yield anywhere from 7 to 35 Stun, not clustered around the average of 19. (If the attack actually rolls high on Body and high on the Stun multiplier, the final Stun damage might reach 60!)

A Normal Attack of the same power (6d6), tightly centers on 6 Body and 21 Stun.

A character with 20 points of Armor who cannot take any real (Body) damage from the bullets, and who doesn't even feel a typical hit (19 Stun), might still get hit hard enough to be stunned on a not-improbable roll.

Against a Normal Attack of the same power (e.g. super-kung-fu punch), he take a few points of Stun with each hit.

Killing attacks roll one third as many dice, then roll a single die for a Stun multiplier. This yields wildly random results -- the Stun Lotto.

 

[mmadsen]

Well, Champions does have it's "pushing" rules to emulate that I think.

Champions' pushing rules are for doing more damage or lifting a heavier object than you normally could. They're good rules, but they aren't quite the same thing as a Second Wind. SAS's Second Wind is more like allowing a free Recovery when you really, really need (along with a system that doesn't generally allow a free Recovery at the end of each turn.)

...Omega World; though I don't really know what that is...

Omega World is the Gamma World mini-game in the latest Polyhedron. Since the genre doesn't provide plentiful magical healing, characters get a second batch of reserve Hit Points only useful for replacing real Hit Points between fights.

...but it's not really groundbreaking stuff. Moe of an accepted Genre convention...

Of course it's an accepted genre convention. The trick is finding an elegant rule to reflect the genre in game.

 

[mmadsen]

Already posted the answer ealier in the thread

All you said earlier was that you didn't like the intro, and that you'd like to have angst-filled psychos in your game.

The game, mechanically, can most certainly handle angst-filled psychos. In fact, not only can the game mechanics handle it, but the Tone section of the GMing Superheroes chapter specifically mentions Dark and Gritty as an option:

The division between good and evil is gone, and everything is presented in shades of grey. There are no real heroes, only antiheroes and grim vigilantes. Anyone claiming to be a true and upright hero is probably a liar covering up a secret. Villains are often psychotic or depraved; violence is both common and bloody, with death the most frequent outcome of combat. Governments and other major organizations are corrupt and untrustworthy at worst, incompetent at best. Comic examples include: Judge Dredd, Hellblazer, Preacher, Punisher, Spawn.

The "default" tone of Silver Age Sentinels is, of course, "Four Colour" (as the Canadians spell it).

 

[Teflon Billy]

All you said earlier was that you didn't like the intro, and that you'd like to have angst-filled psychos in your game.

The game, mechanically, can most certainly handle angst-filled psychos. In fact, not only can the game mechanics handle it, but the Tone section of the GMing Superheroes chapter specifically mentions Dark and Gritty as an option:

The "default" tone of Silver Age Sentinels is, of course, "Four Colour" (as the Canadians spell it).

Hmm...I wish they hadn't included that bit in the intro that led me to believe that this was entirely a "Shiny Happy Heroes" system then.

I'd have been more likely to give it a serious look.

Now I'm happy just waiting for Mutants and Masterminds, which seems to have tied Champions character generation flexibility into something lighting quick and playable.

 

[Theovis]

Hmm...I wish they hadn't included that bit in the intro that led me to believe that this was entirely a "Shiny Happy Heroes" system then.

I'd have been more likely to give it a serious look.

So from those of you who have SAS, does it support gritty Clairmont-age-X-men-Alan-Moore-grimness type heroes? There have been statements that it doesn't "prohibit" grey-morality characters, but I'm not entirely convinced that Billy's first impressions were inaccurate.

Now I'm happy just waiting for Mutants and Masterminds, which seems to have tied Champions character generation flexibility into something lighting quick and playable.

I played MnM at the Con with Billy, and liked it so much that I didn't really give any other superhero games much of a look.

Here's the post I made at the Green Ronin board after the Con:

I went through the Mutants and Masterminds demo along with 3 friends and 3 strangers. It was REALLY fun, we played with the pre-generated templates that will be published in the book but each created a background, persona, and appropiate super-heroic name. I think we must have taken at LEAST 30 seconds each.

It's a very fast combat system, I'm pretty dang impressed with the mechanics around damage - this isn't a game where Superman will be rolling 45d6 for damage. The character generation is right on from a philosophical perspective - standard RPG superpower customizing - but we didn't really get too in depth with chargen. The question is how well the power costs are calibrated against each other - that's the part that makes or breaks a supers game.

The demo was good enough to keep me from buying several other superhero games at GenCon. In fact, we were having so much fun that we blew off the "Wild Talents" demo that we had scheduled. (Wild Talents is a more generic "supers" game from the makers of Godlike.)

Buy it in October. You'll be glad you did.

 

[mmadsen]

So from those of you who have SAS, does it support gritty Clairmont-age-X-men-Alan-Moore-grimness type heroes?

Sure. In fact, the first sample character in the back is a street-level vigilante, Caliburn, who found his fiancee murdered and mutilated by a psychopath copying Jack the Ripper.

One of the sample superteams, the Untouchables, resembles Clairmont's X-men -- mistrusted, etc.

I played MnM at the Con with Billy, and liked it so much that I didn't really give any other superhero games much of a look.

I couldn't tell from your post what made Mutants and Masterminds such a great game. What are the mechanics like?