Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-Stat) -- and Streamlining Hero

[teitan]

Two games

Well, I have SAS as I said before and so far really dig what I am reading, but my players have a decided disinterest. They light up at mention of Mutants & Masterminds though. Both systems seem quick and slick, just amazing from what I have seen of M&M. Gots to get this book.

Aside from that I think these two games will fill the need for fast SUpers games. I think the DCU game was pretty fast as was the old Marvel Game (Saga left a bad taste in my mouth) but I think SAS and M&M (especially) will beat them hands down. I think I am one of the 20 people who liked DCU. LOL

Jason

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Two games

Well, I have SAS as I said before and so far really dig what I am reading, but my players have a decided disinterest.

Previously, teitan, you said that the three stats aren't a problem (with defects and attributes to fill in the details), and that the system was versatile without getting complex.

I can almost agree with that, but the Less Capable Defect seems entirely too granular; for one Bonus Point, you take -6 to something like Manual Dexterity, or a -3 to something like Agility. The powers ("Attributes") seem pretty versatile, but I prefer Hero's use of multiplication and division for advantages and limitations; addition and subtraction don't work well.

Have you played at all though? Our one playtest on this thread revealed wacky combat in actual play.

 

[mmadsen]

Streamlining Hero (Recap)

Champions has many great ideas, but few of them require the kind of complexity the system's known for. I have a few fixes I'd hoped to see in Fifth Edition. Deriving these fixes might not seem simple, but the end-user doesn't have to follow the derivation; it's the end result that's simple.

Stats and Figured Stats

Champions' stats -- and its figured stats in particular -- are needlessly complicated. Who's the genius who thought we should round stat values for bonuses? So now every character is full of stats like 13, 18, 23, etc. Changing the rounding rules, a trivial change, would lead to efficient characters having nice, round stats: 10, 15, 20, etc., not 8, 13, 18, etc.

Many of the figured characteristics are stat/5, but some aren't:

PD = Str/5
ED = Con/5
Spd = 1 + Dex/10
Rec = Str/5 + Con/5
End = 2 x Con
Stun = Body + Str/2 + Con/2

OCV = Dex/3
DCV = Dex/3
ECV = Ego/3

(Also, skills use stat/5 for bonuses.)

If we change those to use stat/5 in all cases, we don't even need any stats beyond 5, 10, 15, 20, etc. For instance:

PD = Str/5
ED = Con/5
Spd = Dex/5
Rec = Str/5 + Con/5
End = 2 x Con = 10 x Con/5
Stun = Body + Str/2 + Con/2 (OK, this one needs some work...)

OCV = Dex/5
DCV = Dex/5
ECV = Ego/5

Moving Spd from 1 + Dex/10 to Dex/5 keeps the norm at 2, and can keep the "human max" at 4. Dropping OCV and DCV to Dex/5 puts them in line with Dex-based skills, and doesn't change the game in any material way; it just makes Dex a wee bit less of an uber-stat (perhaps offsetting any higher Spd stats).

(Aside: Champions' Spd stat has always been too granular at the low end for such an all-important value. Going from 2 (human normal) to 4 (human max) doubles your combat effectiveness. If you're already at "human max", it's still awfully tempting to spend another 10 points (out of 250) to go from 4 to 5 (or even 6) for another 25% to 50% increase in attacks (and moves) per turn. There's no reason Spd has to start at 2. We could define average to be 4 or 6 just as easily.)

Once we've established that we only need stats that are multiples of 5, we can divide those original stat values by 5, making them the same as the figured stats we'd like to get to; we can eliminate the arithmetic.

We could have Str, Dex, Con, etc. scores of 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. instead of 5, 10, 15, 20 -- or 3, 8, 13, 18. And figured stats might look like:

PD = Str
ED = Con
Spd = Dex
Rec = Str + Con
End = 10 x Con
Stun = 5 x Body + 5 x Str/2 + 5 x Con/2 (OK, this one needs some work...)

OCV = Dex
DCV = Dex
ECV = Ego

Then, if we decide to subsume multiple related stats under one heading (more like Tri-Stat, but not so extreme), we might get something like:

Body -- Str, Con, Body; separate Super-Strength power for pure lifting and punching
Dex -- Dex
Mind -- Int
Soul -- Ego, Pre; separate Attractive talent for comeliness, Intimidation skill for Presence Attacks

PD = Body
ED = Body
Spd = Dex
Rec = 2 x Body
End = 10 x Body
Stun = 10 x Body

OCV = Dex
DCV = Dex
ECV = Soul -- or Mind?

With no adjustments, a level of Body would cost the sum of five points of Str, Con, and (old-school) Body: 5 x (1 + 2 + 2) = 25. A level of Dex would cost 5 x 3 = 15. A level of Mind or Int would cost 5 x 1 = 5. A level of Soul would cost 5 x (2 + 1) = 15.

We'd probably adjust them though. Given the genre, I'd have no problem dropping the cost of a level of Body to 20 points, and, given its history as the uber-stat, I'd have no problem bumping Dex to 20 points.

A larger change would be to shift ECV away from Ego (now Soul) to Int (now Mind), and to use Ego (Soul) for psychic toughness, to parallel the Strength/Agility dichotomy of the physical stats. Then we might price both Mind and Soul at 10 points per level.

In this way, we could have a much simpler Champions stat system, one a bit like Tri-Stat (without going "too far"), that changes almost nothing about the underlying system -- or just a few bits that we'd like to change.

Power Modifiers

Another example of a simple streamlining measure -- one that sounds oh-so-complicated but isn't -- would be to handle advantages and limitations as base-2 logarithms. What does that mean? A +1 advantage would double price (same as now), and a -1 limitation would halve price (same as now) -- but you could add and subtract your advantages and disadvantages the way every newbie thinks you should be able to.

If everyone's already looking up power prices on a chart or whipping out a calculator, is it a problem that +1/4 now means x1.2 instead of x1.25, and +1/2 means x1.4 instead of x1.5?

It's a small price to pay for being able to take an existing power, add an advantage or limitation, and not have to "unroll" all the previous math. A book of powers could list each complicated power with dozens of advantages and limitation as having just one final price. Making the whole thing NND (+1) would double that price. Making it all an OAF (-1) would halve that price.

 

[mmadsen]

Champions' complexity doesn't stop at character generation though. Combat is far from streamlined -- even though it wouldn't take much to streamline it.

The first slow-down comes from the Speed Table. At its core, the speed system gives a Spd-N character N actions per 12-second turn. Keeping track, segment by segment, of who can act according to the chart though is a pain, especially if different characters have different Spd stats and players want to optimize their choices based on who can or cannot act before their next phase. Why not just roll a d12 to see if you can act? Or a d6 for Spd stats under 6, and a guaranteed action plus an extra action (depending on a d6 roll) for Spd stats over 6?

The second major slow-down comes from the endurance system. The constant End accounting adds little to the game, and it comes at a clear cost. Most games assume that fighting is tiring, but they don't bother to codify it. I don't see why that can't work for a superhero game. For the few cases where a power should be truly exhausting, it can take a limitation causing Stun damage from fatigue.

Once you get rid of End, you can probably simplify recovery as well. A "second wind" rule, like SAS's, fits the genre better, granting quick recovery only if the hero is driven.

The third slow-down comes from the huge number of dice rolled and the peculiar damage-counting mechanics. Do you really need to roll ten dice for a typical attack? Obviously not. It might feel "super" at first, but it gets old quickly ,and it slows things down. Counting both Body and Stun from the same dice seems like a good idea, but it also slows things down. Killing attacks don't require as many dice, but they suffer from the "Stun Lotto" effect. Roll just a few dice for damage, then multiply that result by another die! I'm sure we can come up with an elegant system that plays "fast and loose".

 

[mmadsen]

Silver Age Sentinels reviews on RPGnet:

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6743.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6735.html
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6776.html

 

[Black Omega]

If Silver Age Sntinels were to release an Astro City supplement, I'd buy that immediately, but I doubt they would. Such a brilliant comic, and it's wrtier abandons it to write friggin' Thunderbolts!

I'd not hold me breath on a AC supplement. There were talks in the past over it that got shot down. Kurt does endorse Gold Rush Game's San Angelo book as very close to the spirit and ideas of Astro City. Out of print presently, though there's always hope Hero Games will start publishing it again.

 

[Black Omega]

Champions' complexity doesn't stop at character generation though. Combat is far from streamlined -- even though it wouldn't take much to streamline it.

The first slow-down comes from the Speed Table. At its core, the speed system gives a Spd-N character N actions per 12-second turn. Keeping track, segment by segment, of who can act according to the chart though is a pain, especially if different characters have different Spd stats and players want to optimize their choices based on who can or cannot act before their next phase. Why not just roll a d12 to see if you can act? Or a d6 for Spd stats under 6, and a guaranteed action plus an extra action (depending on a d6 roll) for Spd stats over 6?

Champions is a less random system. Why roll a d12? Move order is not something random in all systems. I suppose this can be a slowdown, but as a GM I tend to run this myself and just go quickly from person to person, the same as I do in DnD. the only difference is that some characters will have more actions than others.

If it does cause peoblems it's pretty easy to eliminate. It's more of an issue with higher Speed Champions. With non-superhero games Speed is low enough it doesn't slow it down.

The second major slow-down comes from the endurance system. The constant End accounting adds little to the game, and it comes at a clear cost. Most games assume that fighting is tiring, but they don't bother to codify it. I don't see why that can't work for a superhero game. For the few cases where a power should be truly exhausting, it can take a limitation causing Stun damage from fatigue.

Hero sustem Endurance rules are the one area they depart from strongly from common Superhero conventions. It's rare for superheros to ever worry about getting tired. In fact, many mega battles last hours. The end rules are more cinematic. It's quite possible to let someone wear themselves out attacking recklessly then tack advantage. The math involved is basic addition and subtration and takes seconds.

Once again, it's easy to eliminate if desired. Many GM's do.

The third slow-down comes from the huge number of dice rolled and the peculiar damage-counting mechanics. Do you really need to roll ten dice for a typical attack? Obviously not. It might feel "super" at first, but it gets old quickly ,and it slows things down. Counting both Body and Stun from the same dice seems like a good idea, but it also slows things down. Killing attacks don't require as many dice, but they suffer from the "Stun Lotto" effect. Roll just a few dice for damage, then multiply that result by another die! I'm sure we can come up with an elegant system that plays "fast and loose".

Counting body is pretty easy. Roll ten dice. Compare 6's and 1's.
If my roll has three 6's and one '1', then I did 12 body. Unlike the other two, there is no easy way to change this. Hero System is human level games up through Superhero. I don't see any easy way to cut back on the superhuman level without it negatively impacting the human level games.

 

[mmadsen]

Champions is a less random system. Why roll a d12? Move order is not something random in all systems.

The goal of rolling d12 vs. Spd (as an alternate rule) isn't to introduce randomness; it's to ditch the speed table. You get the same in-game result (N moves per turn) without tracking the segment and looking up when everyone moves.

I suppose this can be a slowdown, but as a GM I tend to run this myself and just go quickly from person to person, the same as I do in DnD. the only difference is that some characters will have more actions than others.

But you don't just go from player to player as in D&D. You have one more thing to keep track of: where are we on the 12-segment table?

It's rare for superheros to ever worry about getting tired. In fact, many mega battles last hours. The end rules are more cinematic.

The endurance rules are more cinematic than the comicbook source material?

It's quite possible to let someone wear themselves out attacking recklessly then tack advantage. The math involved is basic addition and subtration and takes seconds.

The endurance rules add one more thing to track, and they don't add much to the game. It's not a question of whether the players can perform addition and subtraction; it's a question of whether it's worth their attention.

Counting body is pretty easy. Roll ten dice. Compare 6's and 1's.

I know the shortcut. Still, rolling ten dice and counting sixes and ones is slower than rolling three or four dice and not having to count sixes and ones.

If the fun part of the game for you is counting up dice, subtracting endurance costs from your total, adding back in recovery, checking the speed table, etc., then those mechanics are for you. There's nothing "fast and loose" about them, and they don't add to the game. Why not use simpler mechanics?

 

[Victim]

I don't like the endurance rules either. It's a lot of bookkeeping, and for what? I don't think that most battles would involve enough intense fighting for many characters to run out of END. So in most cases, it's barely relavent. Only in purpose built cases, like with END limitations, or a character specifically built with low CON and END but costly attacks, does it play a big role. It seems to me that the casual role could be removed, and that something similar could be used for intentional cases. Maybe you get fatigue penalties or something after using a power with the Tiring limitation.

I don't see the speed chart as that big of deal. It mostly just seems to combine the staggered attacks by fighters in 2e with the delaying and ready stuff now. I'd really hate rolling under SPD to handle actions.

 

[mmadsen]

I don't like the endurance rules either. It's a lot of bookkeeping, and for what? I don't think that most battles would involve enough intense fighting for many characters to run out of END. So in most cases, it's barely relavent. Only in purpose built cases, like with END limitations, or a character specifically built with low CON and END but costly attacks, does it play a big role. It seems to me that the casual role could be removed, and that something similar could be used for intentional cases. Maybe you get fatigue penalties or something after using a power with the Tiring limitation.

Agreed. As I said above, "For the few cases where a power should be truly exhausting, it can take a limitation causing Stun damage from fatigue."

We can combine that idea and your notion of fatigue penalties -- along with SAS's notion of a second wind -- by penalizing characters as they take damage. Instead of having a large pool of Stun points, they could have a much smaller pool, say, one fifth as big. Each multiple of that Stun pool they use up gives them -1 to all rolls (or something similar), with -5 meaning unconsciousness. If something rouses their passions though, characters can get a free recovery (or multiple free recoveries).