Simple fix to hybrid characters that works with the current system

Safari

First Post
Overall I think 4e is fantasticly designed, with nice class and power descriptions. However, as I started looking in detail at the rules, something really started to disturb me. I'll take some time to explain it, so stay with me.

Basicly, the fighter, rogue, warlord and wizard have a great design. They have one primary ability score, and get benefits from 2-3 other secondary ability scores. But All their attacks key of this one score.
The way the system works, they can increase their primary ability score, and spread out the secondary, or put it all in one stat. It doesnt realy matter. The concept of the character will work whatever the players chooses.

Now comes the 'problem area'. The ranger, cleric, paladin and warlock have powers that key of 2 different ability scores, but also have secondary stats that are required. If you want a 'strong' (read optimized) character, you'll go for one primary stat and dump the other, so you can also increase one secondary stat. This leads to characters such as a Paladin's with Str 8 and two weapon fighting Rangers with Dex 8. This is no problem if you want to play this concept.

Now my favourite concept of the paladin is a strong one, or atleast with some muscle power. The system gives me a disadvantage for making this build, because a paladin with high wisdom and charisma is more effective.
Another is the dextrous ranger who can also use swords, or a strong ranger who can also use bows.

There's also the multiclass system. I have no problem with the system as written, swapping abilities etc. You 'pay' feats, get flexibility without taking over the core class.
But you'll also have to invest in the ability score, just to use a few of those powers. A lot of concepts such as fighter/wizard and rogue/wizard will be hard to pull off.

The problem i've described above isn't that big at lower levels. There's not a big difference in stats. But at higher levels your primary stats will fly up, while the rest stays low.

So i've been thinking about ways to modify this, to make certain character concepts happen more easily. Eventually i came to a very simple fix that will to some degree, make these character's very decent.

Feat:

Adapted Combat Training [Heroic]

Benefit:
Choose an ability score. When making an attack roll that keys off of the chosen ability, you gain a +1 feat bonus to the associated ability modifier for the purpose of the attack roll. At 11th lvl, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st lvl, it increases to +3.
Special: The bonus gained from this feat counts as a feat bonus to attack rolls. This feat cannot cause the augmented ability modifier to exceed that of your highest ability modifier.


Example character that can use this:

Lvl 17 Drow Ranger

Str 16
Con 13
Dex 20
Int 14
Wis 15
Cha 13

With Adapted Training this character gets a +2 bonus on his melee attacks and powers, making it a good concept.
If the feat is taken a second time for intelligence, this character could also pick up the wizard multiclassing feat, and be decent with his wizard attacks

So what do you think? Will it lead to overpowered or broken combination's
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Vangol

First Post
Great suggestion! I will almost certainly introduce this feat into my campaign.

I wonder if it would be overpowered if it gave a damage bonus, too...
 

Samurai

Adventurer
Interesting idea. However, I think that part of the reason they felt it was ok to have classes with 2 key abilities is because you get +1 in 2 stats each time (or in all stats twice), meaning you can keep raising your 2 key abilities side by side if you want. This feat will actually discourage that, because it will be optimal to have 1 ability 6 points higher than the other by Epic levels (otherwise you don't take full advantage of the feat.) So instead of seeing Warlocks who are both tough and charismatic, or Clerics who are Strong and Wise, they'll choose 1 or the other and then spread their other bonuses around

I think if it were still "+1 to 1 ability", this feat would be more necessary, but as it is, I'll have to give it some thought...
 


Vangol

First Post
Samurai said:
Interesting idea. However, I think that part of the reason they felt it was ok to have classes with 2 key abilities is because you get +1 in 2 stats each time (or in all stats twice), meaning you can keep raising your 2 key abilities side by side if you want.
But then you can't increase a secondary ability score. This is especially bad for paladins, who have a number of powers, and a class feature, based on wisdom.

This feat will actually discourage that, because it will be optimal to have 1 ability 6 points higher than the other by Epic levels (otherwise you don't take full advantage of the feat.) So instead of seeing Warlocks who are both tough and charismatic, or Clerics who are Strong and Wise, they'll choose 1 or the other and then spread their other bonuses around
The system already discourages focusing on two primary abilities. This feat is an attempt to partially fix the problem.

There's another solution: don't optimize your characters to the exclusion of everything else.
If a player wants to make a strong+wise cleric for roleplaying reasons, they shouldn't be penalized with suboptimal stats.
 

Safari

First Post
Interesting idea. However, I think that part of the reason they felt it was ok to have classes with 2 key abilities is because you get +1 in 2 stats each time (or in all stats twice), meaning you can keep raising your 2 key abilities side by side if you want. This feat will actually discourage that, because it will be optimal to have 1 ability 6 points higher than the other by Epic levels (otherwise you don't take full advantage of the feat.) So instead of seeing Warlocks who are both tough and charismatic, or Clerics who are Strong and Wise, they'll choose 1 or the other and then spread their other bonuses around

Do keep in mind that this bonus is only limited, so it wont allow someone to dump a stat completely. They will still need a reasonable score in the stat they want to use.
Also it doestn grant a damage bonus, only a hit bonus.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
So if I have a character with 16 Str / 18 Con (e.g. a Dwarf) who boosts his Strength and Con at every opportunity, he'll get the attack bonus of an 18 Str at 1st level, the attack bonus of a 20 Str at 8th level, the attack bonus of a 22 strength at 11th level (exceeding the bonus he'd get from his 21 Con by 1), the attack bonus of a 24 Str at 14th level (exceeding his 22 Con by 1), and the attack bonus of a 28 Str at 21st level (exceeding his 24 Con by 2).

Basically, a Fighter with this feat and a lower Strength is better at Strength attacks than a Fighter who puts everything into Strength.

That's just not right.

Cheers, -- N
 

Samurai

Adventurer
Nifft said:
So if I have a character with 16 Str / 18 Con (e.g. a Dwarf) who boosts his Strength and Con at every opportunity, he'll get the attack bonus of an 18 Str at 1st level, the attack bonus of a 20 Str at 8th level, the attack bonus of a 22 strength at 11th level (exceeding the bonus he'd get from his 21 Con by 1), the attack bonus of a 24 Str at 14th level (exceeding his 22 Con by 1), and the attack bonus of a 28 Str at 21st level (exceeding his 24 Con by 2).

Basically, a Fighter with this feat and a lower Strength is better at Strength attacks than a Fighter who puts everything into Strength.

That's just not right.

Cheers, -- N
No, he said it was a maximum of 1 point at Heroic, 2 at Paragon, and 3 at Epic level, and it couldn't exceed the Primary stat in any case.

However, for comparison, I came up with a Weapon Finesse feat that allows someone to use their Dex in place of their Str for making attack rolls when using Light Blades, but not when using any power that specifically states Str is used... only on Basic melee attacks.

That is much more limited... 1 specific stat for another instead of your best for any other, only on basic attacks, not powers, and only with a limited (and relatively weak) type of weapon. And yet, with Light Blades and a good Dex, that feat is potentially 4x-8x better than the Combat Reflexes feat (which only gives a +1 attack on Opportunity Attacks), and 2x-4x better than Blade Opportunist, which gives +2 on OA's only when using a Blade!

Now, you might say "Combat Reflexes was beaten with the nerf bat", and you'd be right, but most feats are relatively weak compared to some of the 3.x feats, especially at Heroic levels. A generic +1 on attacks with all powers that use something besides your best stat is IMO much stronger than most other feats at that level. Now, if you feel that dual-prime statted characters are given such a raw deal that they need a nice feat to help make up the difference, then go for it. Just understand that this feat will be pretty much mandatory for any such characters to take, and it may affect how they spend their stat bonuses in order to get full use out of the feat.
 

Safari

First Post
Samurai said:
Now, you might say "Combat Reflexes was beaten with the nerf bat", and you'd be right, but most feats are relatively weak compared to some of the 3.x feats, especially at Heroic levels. A generic +1 on attacks with all powers that use something besides your best stat is IMO much stronger than most other feats at that level. Now, if you feel that dual-prime statted characters are given such a raw deal that they need a nice feat to help make up the difference, then go for it. Just understand that this feat will be pretty much mandatory for any such characters to take, and it may affect how they spend their stat bonuses in order to get full use out of the feat.

I do agree that this is the most powerfull feat out there, but it only works for non-optimized characters and it works great with multiclassing. I should maybe put a limit in place to one ability score.

So if I have a character with 16 Str / 18 Con (e.g. a Dwarf) who boosts his Strength and Con at every opportunity, he'll get the attack bonus of an 18 Str at 1st level, the attack bonus of a 20 Str at 8th level, the attack bonus of a 22 strength at 11th level (exceeding the bonus he'd get from his 21 Con by 1), the attack bonus of a 24 Str at 14th level (exceeding his 22 Con by 1), and the attack bonus of a 28 Str at 21st level (exceeding his 24 Con by 2).

The way you're describing it doesn't work, as already pointed out.
What you can do, is increase your constitution and not your strength. You will still maintain a high attack bonus. The disadavantage wil be that you get no damage bonus from strenth. I've also edited the feat so it only works on powers. So the fighter will need to raise his strength too increase his base attack.
 
Last edited:

iceifur

Explorer
Love the idea! What about this for some cleaned-up feat language?

Adapted Combat Training [Heroic]
Benefit: Choose an ability score. When making an attack roll that keys off of the chosen ability, you gain a +1 feat bonus to the associated ability modifier for the purpose of the attack roll. At 11th lvl, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st lvl, it increases to +3.
Special: The bonus gained from this feat counts as a feat bonus to attack rolls. This feat cannot cause the augmented ability modifier to exceed that of your highest ability score.​
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top