Simple Question on Huge Daggers and Tiny Longswords

[WingOver]

As a DM I feel the the new weapon size rules are an improvement.

From a game mechanics standpoint it's easier for me to conceptualize weapons matching the size category of the wielding creature. This speeds my NPC creation.

From a realism standpoint, it makes more sense as far as weapon construction size (pommel length and width for a weapon forged by giants won't fit naturally in a human's hand, for example.)

I know the whole system is abstracted and it can never truly be realistic without bogging it down with rules, but I'm satisifed with this particular mechanic.

 

[Snipehunt]

To illustrate how goofy the 3.0 way of doing things was, here is a picture of Conan weilding a size Medium dagger (which he can do without penalty in the 3.0 rules!):

J

Cute picture, but of course there are dozens of different types of daggers, many of which, when increased in size, like very close the bastard sword Conan uses. There are also many types of longswords that, when made smaller, are virtually indistinguishable from many types of daggers.

Also, don't forget that grip sizes are not going to increase as much as the blade of a weapon. The grip of a child's foil or epee is very little different from an adults. Which says nothing about spears, axes, and in particular maces, which are just weighted sticks.

Under the weapon sizing rules you could change the grip completely, and still have the -2 size penalty. As the grip is the only problematic aspect IMO, why this change?

And why couldn't a human just practice with small weapons until proficient, and then get rid of the -2 size penalty? Does anybody really think that the differnt balance (if any) of a small shortsword from a medium dagger really make it impossible to become proficient with it?

Finally, there is the silliness of the double-longspear, double-spiked chain, and double bastard sword (medium and small) PC. Add that to Hypersmurf's gargantuan crossbow-wielder, and you have about as silly as system as anyone could imagine.

Frank and Hypersmurf are right on. Silly rules, much abusable, that serve no purpose.

 

[Aaron2]

Qu

So, this jagged wedge of iron, with a rag wrapped around one end for a grip, is a reasonable match for an improvised Medium Dagger. It's also a reasonable match for an improvised Small Shortsword.

A human can use a Medium Dagger. He can't use a Small Shortsword - it's too small. But the improvised weapon is a reasonable match for both items.

Your creating a false dilema here. An improvised weapon is -not- a dagger, nor is it a shortsword. It's an improvised weapon that just happens to do similar damage to a dagger (note the critical is always 20 x2). Improvised weapons don't resize since they aren't weapons to begin with.

So if he finds a real Small Shortsword, can he use it as an improvised Medium Dagger, at a -4 penalty?

Why not?


I won't concede the spear issue. A 10 foot spear designed to be used by an ogre would be significantly thicker than one designed to be used by a halfling. Is the difference big enough to warrent a -2 penalty? I don't know. But I'll take one possibly semi-flaky weapon over the old way; at least now I know what proficiency to use and have the ability to reasonably resize reach weapons. The cleaner weapon list is just icing on the cake.


Aaron

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

And why couldn't a human just practice with small weapons until proficient, and then get rid of the -2 size penalty? Does anybody really think that the differnt balance (if any) of a small shortsword from a medium dagger really make it impossible to become proficient with it?

This is the worst thing about the new system. There isn't a way to get rid of the -2 penalty.

(A million dollars says that there will be a feat in the Complete Warrior that will do just that. Make us shell out another thirty dollars when it should have been core. *grumble*)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why not?

Because the improvised weapon rules only apply to "objects not crafted to be weapons".

A Small Shortsword is crafted to be a weapon, and so the improvised weapon rules don't apply. Instead, the "inappropriately sized weapon" rules apply, which state that a human cannot use a Small Shortsword, since it's too small.

"Too small", in this case, being exactly the same size as the Improvised Small Shortsword, which he can use as an Improvised Medium Dagger, since it wasn't crafted to be a weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Finally, there is the silliness of the double-longspear, double-spiked chain, and double bastard sword (medium and small) PC. Add that to Hypersmurf's gargantuan crossbow-wielder, and you have about as silly as system as anyone could imagine.

The double-longspear guy could already be done in 3.0 with lances.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The double-longspear guy could already be done in 3.0 with lances.

Works better in 3.5 with lances while mounted, though.

By strict 3.5 wording, you get 1.5x Str bonus to damage and double Power Attack with both lances.

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Why not?

Because the rules say they can't. The rules that you are apologizing for. The rules that don't make any sense.

A one pound jagged piece of metal is small enough to be used as a light weapon by a halfling. It's also small enough to be used as a light weapon by a human.

But the rules say that if a halfling can use it as a light weapon a human can't use it at all - hence the inherent and completely absurd contradiction.

And for that matter, the rules say that if a human can use it as a light weapon, a halfling can only use it as a "one-handed weapon". So which is it? Depending upon whether you look at that jagged piece of unworked sharp metal as an improvised weapon for a human or as an improvised weapon for a halfling - either the halfling can't use it as a light weapon or the human can't use it all.

Neither choice makes any sense as it's just a sharp lump of iron. But the rules are absolute on this issue - you must choose it to be unusable as an improvised weapon by a human or have it be a non-light weapon for a halfling.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

But the rules are absolute on this issue - you must choose it to be unusable as an improvised weapon by a human or have it be a non-light weapon for a halfling.

I disagree, there.

I think a human can use it as an improvised Medium weapon, and a halfling can use it as an improvised Small weapon. It wasn't crafted as a weapon for any particular size category, so that's irrelevant. You'd find the most reasonable match from the weapons of the wielder's size category.

I guesstimate the jagged piece of iron as a 1d4 Piercing blade, and compare to the tables to find a reasonable match.

For a human, that's a dagger. For a halfling, it's a shortsword.

If it were actually a shortsword designed for a halfling, the rules say the human can't use it. But it's not.

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

In that case, all barkeeps should design their mugs as weaponry. Since they diminutive objects, humans would be unable to use them as weapons and the crockery would be safe in any tavern brawl.

-Frank