Simplified ongoing damage

[Plane Sailing]

I was thinking about ways of simplifying combat and reducing or removing additional saving throws where I could, and I realised that from a statistical point of view it would be pretty simple and relatively accurate )) to remove saving throws for ongoing damage and say that all ongoing damage lasts for two rounds.

After all, ongoing 5 does 5, then 50% chance of another 5, then 50% chance of another 5 after that. The expected damage is 5 + 2.5 + 1.25 +0.62 etc which approaches 10 pretty closely.

The same way ongoing 10 approaches a final result of 20, ongoing 20 approaches a final result of 40 and so forth.

So from a statistical point of view, the expected average damage of ongoing damage can be maintained by doing away with the 'save at end of turn to remove ongoing damage' and just saying that it works for 2 rounds then stops.

Sure, it removes the bugbear of failing a save 5 times in a row and dieing - but I don't think of that as a particularly bad thing (and I'm the DM). Three times we have had characters who are at -ve hp die as a result of ongoing damage that they didn't seem to be able to save against.

I'll probably discuss this with my players and see if they would like to try it out. The numbers should work out the same on average over the adventure and it is one less set of rolls we have to worry about during a fight.

Cheers

 

[Paul Strack]

If you still allow characters to eliminate the ongoing damage with a bonus save (e.g. from a Warlord power), that seems balanced to me. Without the bonus save, though, the PCs loose a lot of tactical options.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Yes (I forgot to put that in), bonus saves granted by powers (or whatever) would still allow an additional chance to make a save before the ongoing duration had run its normal course.

Cheers

 

[Starfox]

How about the save bonuses Elites and Solos have?

 

[Mesh Hong]

I see what you are trying to do with this idea, but is it really simplifying the situation enough to make it worth while?

You are replacing a standard mechanic, (save against each ongoing effect at the end of your turn) with a count down mechanic (keep a record of how many turns you are under an effect). Personally I don't see where the real simplification is, in many ways I see this as being more complicated.

What happens when a character is subject to the same effect again? Under the standard system it wouldn't matter as you are still making one save to end the effect. But under your proposed system wouldn't you have to reset the condition to 2 turns again to maintain your balanced average damage?

There is also the slight complication of using two different mechanics instead of one? (save against status effects, 2 round duration against ongoing damage)

There is also the problem of various bonuses to saves, e.g. +5 vs. poison, and then you have to consider elites and solos having +2 and +5 bonuses to saves.

 

[CapnZapp]

I agree this doesn't seem much like a real relief. To make this a real simplification:

#1 Replace ongoing damage with a single damage hit doing triple the ongoing damage rating. (While a doubling might be statistically accurate, that doesn't take the danger of repeated failures into account. By tripling the damage instead, you do take higher damage on average, but you also lose the uncertainty. This should cost something. Besides, by tripling damage, ongoing damage becomes more dramatically important)
#2 Any bonuses on saves translate into a reduction of the ongoing damage rating.
#3 Any bonus save can be expended as an immediate reaction, reducing the damage before it is applied. One bonus save reduces the damage to double the rating. Two bonus saves reduces the damage to equal the rating. More than two bonus saves doesn't stack.

As an example, consider a creature who's just been hit by Ongoing 10.
* If it can do nothing against this damage, it loses 30 hit points.
* If it it is an elite (or otherwise have +2 to relevant saves), it loses (10-8)x3=24 hp.
* If it it is a solo (or otherwise have +5 to relevant saves), it loses (10-5)x3=15 hp.
* If it (or its allies) is able and willing to spend a power granting an extra save or re-roll, the damage is reduced to two-thirds (to 20 hp, 16 hp and 10 hp; respectively, depending on save bonuses)
* If it (or its allies) is able and willing to spend two powers granting extra saves or re-rolls, the damage is reduced to one-third (to 10 hp, 8 hp and 5 hp; respectively, again depending on save bonuses)

In this system you neither roll dice or keep track of rounds. Everything is resolved right at the time of the attack causing the ongoing damage.

Cheers,
Zapp

PS. Yes, Solos automatically become immune to Ongoing 5 damage. Not a big deal, as I see it...

 

[Plane Sailing]

How about the save bonuses Elites and Solos have?

I wasn't going to bother, since they have buckets of hit points anyway.

If I wanted to be strictly accurate, normals would receive ongoing value + 80%, elites ongoing value + 50% and solos ongoing value + 20%, but I don't really care about those tiny differences.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I see what you are trying to do with this idea, but is it really simplifying the situation enough to make it worth while?

You are replacing a standard mechanic, (save against each ongoing effect at the end of your turn) with a count down mechanic

Personally I've been keeping a record of melee rounds for over a decade, and it is simplicity itself to just make a mark on the sheet for when the effect ends (or more likely everyone just knows when he has taken the damage twice).

The reason that I'm considering this is to reduce the number of die rolls per players turn - when dealing with things that cause ongoing damage we've got to remember the damage, remember to make x or y saving throws and it all adds up to (IMO) unnecessary complexity in the combat.

By disassociating it from the saving throw, I could also have the ongoing damage take effect on the anniversary of the one who caused it, thus putting responsibility for remembering on the one who initiated the ongoing damage. I may or may not suggest that, but it is an option I could consider.


Regards,

 

[Mesh Hong]

Personally I've been keeping a record of melee rounds for over a decade, and it is simplicity itself to just make a mark on the sheet for when the effect ends (or more likely everyone just knows when he has taken the damage twice).

The reason that I'm considering this is to reduce the number of die rolls per players turn - when dealing with things that cause ongoing damage we've got to remember the damage, remember to make x or y saving throws and it all adds up to (IMO) unnecessary complexity in the combat.

By disassociating it from the saving throw, I could also have the ongoing damage take effect on the anniversary of the one who caused it, thus putting responsibility for remembering on the one who initiated the ongoing damage. I may or may not suggest that, but it is an option I could consider.

Fair enough. As long as you and your players are happy with it then its great (as with all house rules). In any case its always interesting to see different opinions and interpretations of the system.

 

[keterys]

If you were going to do straight out damage, I'd actually expect it to be more like x1.5, fwiw - it's 45% chance of failure base, often 40% or even 35% - 20% for dwarves against poison, and damage is more valuable up front than lingering in a way that doesn't stack.