Simplified Skills

[comrade raoul]

This is a system for assigning skill skill points that is much simpler than the original system. The basic idea is that, first, everyone picks a number of skills equal to 4 + their Intelligence modifier (or 5 + your Intelligence modifier if you're a human), and maxes out those skills (to the extent they can, depending on whether or not they have the chosen skill as a class skill); this part is just like the "Maximum Ranks, Limited Choices" UA variant, except that the number of skills you pick has nothing to do with how many skill points your class gets. In the formal version, I call these "trained skills."

The benefit to having levels in a skills-oriented class comes in the second part of the new system, which is a lot like the second UA variant: for every skill you (a) have as a class skill and (b) don't decide to focus on, you get half the maximum number of ranks (or the maximum ranks you'd have as a class skill). So the benefit to being a highly skilled class like a rogue is that you have a respectable number of ranks in a very large array of useful skills.

The idea is that this system, like the UA systems, is designed to make it much easier to create NPCs from scratch, and make character creation and advancement less of a headache. It gives characters lots more skills (and characters with levels in classes that normally don't have many skill points at all especially benefit), but I suspect that this won't in practice be especially game-breaking. In fact, I imagine it will just make play more fun: it means your rogue, just by virtue of being a rogue, knows a bit about disguise, so that you as a player can respond in interesting ways to a variety of challenges you'd never anticipated when you were assigning skills (and that your DM can have more freedom in choosing challenges for the party). But it also preserves key elements of customization: your rogue will still never as good at disguise as she is at lockpicking (say), her true calling. I think I'm combining a degree of flexibility and focus that neither UA system really retains.

Here's how it works. Note that I am still using a vocabulary with skill ranks, rather than skill bonuses.

Trained Skills and Class Skills
When you create a character, select a number of skills equal to 4 + your Intelligence modifier. If you're human, you can select an additional skill. These skills are your trained skills. You gain 2 ranks in each trained skill. Every time you attain an odd level after 1st (that is, starting at 3rd level), you gain an extra rank in each trained skill.

In addition, you gain 2 ranks in each skill you have as a class skill (in the case of multiclassed characters, a skill counts as a class skill for this purpose if you have at least one level in a relevant class). You gain an additional number of ranks in a given skill equal to half the levels you have in classes that have those classes as class skills. These ranks stack with any ranks you have in skills that you selected as trained skills.

For example, Elan is a 6th-level half-elf bard with an Intelligence of 8. He chooses Knowledge (religion), Perform (sing), and Ride as his trained skills. This means he has 9 ranks in Knowledge (religion) and Perform (sing), because they are also bard class skills; 5 ranks in all other bard class skills (though they are not trained skills), and 4 ranks in Ride (because it is a trained skill without being a class skill).

Thoughts?

 

[ValhallaGH]

Thoughts?

Elan should have Ride not Handle Animal.

Actual commentary.
It's complicated. The actual picking of skills is simple but the calculation of how many ranks you have is ... convoluted.
The results are easy to grasp once you see them, and I really like how it makes a character good at lots of skills, but the actual calculations are very complex in wording and concept.

The example does help a lot.

 

[comrade raoul]

Hey, thanks! I'll edit it to match Elan better.

I'm sorry about the convoluted presentation; I think of the concept as really simple, actually, although probably everyone thinks that the rules they make up are really simple. Maybe this alternate version helps (using bonuses, not ranks):

1. Pick a number of skills to be trained skills equal to 4 + your Int modifier. If you're human, pick an extra skill.
2. You get a +2 bonus on all trained skills, with an extra +1 bonus at every odd level after 1st.
3. You get a +2 bonus on all class skills, with an extra +1 at every even level in the class. If a class skill is also a trained skill, the bonuses stack.

This isn't exactly right for multiclass characters (it's more precise to say that you get a +2 bonus on a skill if you have it as a class skill for any of your classes, with an extra +1 per two levels in relevant classes), but gets the basic point across, right?

Another way to put it is basically this: picking a skill as a trained skill means you max it out, whether or not it's a class skill. If you have a class skill that you don't max out, you're assumed to be keeping it at half its highest possible value.

 

[ValhallaGH]

The use of ranks versus bonus isn't a problem. In fact, it's a more accurate usage and is the way you should be writing this. The convoluted part is how 2 + 1/2 character evel and 2 + 1/2 class level are worded and combined.

For a simple character, the Elan example helps a lot. Having a complicated example, such as Belkar the Ranger X/Barbarian 1, would help clarify the interactions of multi-classing on this system.


As for rewording, how about changing this:

You gain 2 ranks in each trained skill. Every time you attain an odd level after 1st (that is, starting at 3rd level), you gain an extra rank in each trained skill.

to this:

You gain ranks equal to 2 + 1/2 character level (rounded down) in each trained skill.

and changing this:

In addition, you gain 2 ranks in each skill you have as a class skill (in the case of multiclassed characters, a skill counts as a class skill for this purpose if you have at least one level in a relevant class). You gain an additional number of ranks in a given skill equal to half the levels you have in classes that have those classes as class skills. These ranks stack with any ranks you have in skills that you selected as trained skills.

to this:

In addition, you gain 2 + 1/2 class level (rounded down) ranks in each class skill. These ranks stack with the ranks from Trained skills.

I find that to be both clearer and more concise.

 

[comrade raoul]

The problem with this approach is that it can be a little misleading: under this approach, a character's skills only improve at even levels, and they do so in big jumps. (A character with a trained class skill has 4 ranks at 1st, 6 ranks at 2nd, 8 at 4th, and so on.) This is a result I want to avoid. Starting with 2 ranks, and then adding a half rank each subsequent level, though, is perfectly accurate, so it might work to just use that. (This means single-classed characters have the same number of ranks in untrained class skills as they do in trained cross-class skills, contradicting my original example with Elan (and my initial hope of ensuring that characters tend to increase trained class skills and untrained cross-class skills at different levels, ensuring that they get something every level), but I think the added elegance justifies this.)

Here's a revised description of the rules, with the half-ranks approach and with a built-in Belkar example:

Trained Skills and Class Skills
When you create a character, select a number of skills equal to 4 + your Intelligence modifier. If you're human, you can select an additional skill. These skills are your trained skills. You gain 1½ ranks in each trained skill, plus an additional half rank per character level (including 1st level).

You also gain 1½ ranks in each skill you have as a class skill, plus an additional half rank per level in a relevant class (including 1st level). These ranks stack with ranks from trained skills.

For example, Elan is a half-elf 7th-level bard with an Intelligence of 8. He chooses Knowledge (religion), Perform (sing), and Ride as his trained skills. This means he has 10 ranks in Knowledge (religion) and Perform (sing), because they are also bard class skills; and 5 ranks in both Ride (because it's a trained skill without being a class skill) and all other bard class skills (though they are not trained skills).

On the other hand, Belkar is a halfling 6th-level ranger/1st-level barbarian with an Intelligence of 10. He chooses Hide, Intimidate, Jump, and Use Magic Device as his trained skills. This means he has 10 ranks in Jump, because it's also a class skill for both barbarians and rangers; 9½ ranks (which just provide a +9 bonus) in Hide, because also a class skill, but just for rangers; 7 ranks in Intimidate, because it's also a class skill, but just for barbarians; and 5 ranks in Use Magic Device, because it's a trained skill without being a class skill. He also has 5 ranks in all skills that are class skills for both barbarians and rangers, and 4½ ranks (which just provide a +4 bonus) in all skills that are just class skills for rangers. If there were any skills, other than Intimidate, that were class skills for barbarians but not for rangers, Belkar would have 2 ranks in each of those, too.

The multiclass example is nice, I think, because it does bring out the complexity in the system. Writing up Belkar was a bit of a headache, actually, but it's still a little easier than the current system--you still don't actually have to sit down and assign skill points. You just take each class skill, start with 1½ plus an extra ½ per level, and add the constant bonus for trained skills. It's actually a lot like assigning saving throws to multiclass characters, if you use the fractional system.

(Edit: Also, I note this is my 500th post. Woot.)

 

[ValhallaGH]

The multiclass example is nice, I think, because it does bring out the complexity in the system.

I hoped it would do that.

Writing up Belkar was a bit of a headache, actually

Uh oh. When the inventor of the system finds it to be a headache is when I see giant, neon warning signs.
If it hurt your head then how much more painful will it be for people to use at the table? How much worse will it be for the DM that generates NPC stats in his head (or just stores them there)?

The problem with this approach is that it can be a little misleading: under this approach, a character's skills only improve at even levels, and they do so in big jumps.

You're right. I wonder how I didn't notice that....

How about:
You gain ranks equal to 2 + 1/2 character level (rounded down) in each trained skill.
In addition, you gain 1 + 1/2 class level (rounded up) ranks in each class skill. These ranks stack with the ranks from Trained skills.

This would give Elan 1 + (7/2 rounded up = 4) + 2 + (7/2 rounded down = 3) = 10 ranks in Knowledge Religion and Perform Sing at level 7, 2 + (7/2 rounded down = 3) = 5 ranks in Ride at level 7, and 1 + (7/2 rounded up = 4) = 5 ranks in untrained Bard skills at level 7.

Belkar would have 10 ranks in Jump, 9 ranks in Hide, 7 ranks in Intimidate, and 5 ranks in UMD, with 4 ranks in untrained Ranger skills and 2 ranks in untrained Barbarian skills.

Therefore all Trained Class Skills have ranks of 3 + class level and all untrained class skills have ranks of 1 + 1/2 class level (rounded up).
Trained Cross-Class skills have ranks of 2 + 1/2 character level (rounded down).
Multiclass trained skills have ranks of 3 + 1/2 character level (rounded down) + 1/2 class level (rounded up).

The advantage is that you eliminate 1/2 ranks while still keeping the same effective rank caps.

(Edit: Also, I note this is my 500th post. Woot.)

Congratulations.

Side note: OotS Elan is pure human. See here.

 

[comrade raoul]

Uh oh. When the inventor of the system finds it to be a headache is when I see giant, neon warning signs.
If it hurt your head then how much more painful will it be for people to use at the table? How much worse will it be for the DM that generates NPC stats in his head (or just stores them there)?

Right. I think it'll get way easier with practice. You just have to feel comfortable thinking in half ranks: the awkwardness mostly came from dealing with half ranks--particular the 1½-rank "kicker" for at least one level in a class skill, rather than the flat +2 kicker for a good save. I think I'd use your approach but reverse it: the 2 + half class level for class skills, and the 1 + half character level (rounded up) for trained skills. You could even just include a little chart for ranks in trained skills right next to feats and ability score enhancements. The nice thing about this system is that a character's bonus ranks in a class skill is exactly the same as a her bonus in a save with a "good" advancement.

I will note that this is still way easier than assigning skill ranks manually, and I do think the characters it produces are more appealing than the characters produced by either of the UA methods. It's still incredibly simple for single-classed characters, and actually probably really straightforward to do on the fly even for multiclass characters, particularly if they only have one or two classes. If you can keep track of which skills are class skills for each class, you're in pretty good shape: you just have to apply a couple of extra modifiers to the skill. The important thing is that you're minimizing the number of decisions you actually have to make (viz., which skills to pick as trained skills). So to pick a random example: you can still figure out, using the newest iteration, a fighter 3/paladin 4's trained Diplomacy (9 ranks) or her untrained Craft (5 ranks) or Jump (3 ranks) in just a few seconds, for example.

The advantage is that you eliminate 1/2 ranks while still keeping the same effective rank caps.

Right.

 

[ValhallaGH]

the 2 + half class level for class skills, and the 1 + half character level (rounded up) for trained skills.

One of the reasons I didn't suggest this route is that Belkar would have 10 ranks in Hide and Jump as a 6 Ranger / 7 Barbarian. The penalty for multiclassing is smaller, making it even more appealing.

 

[Vrecknidj]

For tremendous ease, you can also go this route.

Good skill = character's level (yes, character level, not class level)
Fair skill = 2/3 character's level
Poor skill = 1/3 character's level
No skill = 0

If anything comes up in the game, just ask, "Would so and so be good, fair or poor at this, or would he not be able to do it at all?" Then add the ability modifier and roll. To make things fit with the existing system, subtract 3 from all DCs (to account for the fact that everyone's max ranks is normally level +3).

This is how I run NPCs, it makes it a LOT less time consuming to pick skills.

I don't bother with class skills in this system (for my NPCs) because, in the long run, it's a game, not work, and I do plenty of work at work.

Dave

 

[Li Shenron]

This is a system for assigning skill skill points that is much simpler than the original system.

...

Can't you say more simply (for single class characters):

1) all your class skills automatically have half their max ranks by default

2) choose 4+Int skills in which you're best trained: they can be either class or cross-class

2a) best trained class skills have full max ranks instead of half
2b) best trained cross class skills have half max ranks (instead of nothing)

For multiclass characters, I think your system simply doesn't work, because each class has it's own class skills.